Gas detectors

[Bob McParticipant @bobmc91481]

Household gas detection

[Bob McParticipant @bobmc91481]

Ok.. its not related to model engineering but perhaps there are some of you out there who might throw some light as to why I can't seem to find anything for household use which states it is a Gas detector/sensor.

I had a knock on the door and a real nice guy…a British Gas engineer told me that I was eligible for free fitting of carbon monoxide detectors … all paid for.. "well put them in" says I; after he had gone I began to think…. isn't carbon monoxide what you get when some volatile vapour such as petrol is burned..?

This don't make sense now… but I admit I don't know much about these things.. I would have thought that carbon monoxide is what you get when perhaps there has been a gas leak and perhaps a room full of gas is ignited…and then carbon monoxide would be present and the detectors would alert me to the fact that the house has just blown up…!!!

Is carbon monoxide the same stuff as household gas itself…? don't know..

I would have thought that sensing a build up of gas would be more appropriate…but I hope to be educated….

…Bob…

[FMESParticipant @fmes]

Hi Bob, Carbon Monoxide is usually the result of incomplete combustion of any hydrocarbon and yes that does include household gas.

It is a totally odour free undetectable gas which will kill you before you are even aware of it, so the installation of a detector is highly recommended.

Normally it would alert you to a faulty boiler flue or blocked chimney.

Regards

Lofty

[Roderick JenkinsParticipant @roderickjenkins93242]

Town gas or coal gas was a by product of turning coal into coke. It consisted of methane, hydrogen and carbon monoxide. In the UK coal gas was replaced by natural gas which is methane with a few impurities. As noted, carbon monoxide is toxic which is why you used to be able to kill yourself by putting your head in a gas oven and turning on the gas without lighting it.

Carbon monoxide is also a combustion product, in greater or lesser quantities, of burning carbon containing materials and occurs in greater quantities if there is a shortage of oxygen. Coal fires, gas fires and, particularly, log burners need adequate ventilation to ensure complete combustion so a carbon monoxide monitor is a good idea in rooms that have those appliances – they give a warning before it is too late…

HTH,

Rod

[V8EngParticipant @v8eng]

Bob.

It would be worth you reading about Carbon Monoxide poisoning. I have put a link here which makes interesting (and informative) reading.

**LINK**

V8.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

We had a CO monitor go off in a room with a calor heater, despite the room meeting the volume requirements. It went to visit Mr Tippy.

Neil

[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

They are readily available at B&Q, Screwfix, Homebase etc etc. If you have an interconnected fire alarm system, you can usually get CO sensors for that too.

Dunno what's up with B&Q / Screwfix right now but I can't access either website (both are part of the same Kingfisher group) but the Homebase site shows a few, as does Toolstation.

If your open flue gas fire allows fumes back into the room, you can gradually use up the oxygen in the room. Then the gas being burnt in the fire doesn't get enough oxygen to burn completely and you get CO. CO stops oxygen getting into your bloodstream which isn't ideal.

Murray

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

You don't seem to have looked very far for gas detectors.

**LINK**

CO monitors are a good way of protecting against flue faults in domestic boilers which is really a ventillation fault.

If you want to sniff for gas leaks then something like the link would suit. Boats (I believe) are required to have gas detectors fitted as a fire precaution so you should be able to find battery operated devices too. Propane being heavier than air tending to fill bilges and lower parts of cabins.

Or you could use a good old miners lamp.

regards Martin

[Jeff DaymanParticipant @jeffdayman43397]

Posted by Bob Mc on 06/12/2017 13:09:52:

Ok.. its not related to model engineering but perhaps there are some of you out there who might throw some light as to why I can't seem to find anything for household use which states it is a Gas detector/sensor.

I had a knock on the door and a real nice guy…a British Gas engineer told me that I was eligible for free fitting of carbon monoxide detectors … all paid for.. "well put them in" says I; after he had gone I began to think…. isn't carbon monoxide what you get when some volatile vapour such as petrol is burned..?

This don't make sense now… but I admit I don't know much about these things.. I would have thought that carbon monoxide is what you get when perhaps there has been a gas leak and perhaps a room full of gas is ignited…and then carbon monoxide would be present and the detectors would alert me to the fact that the house has just blown up…!!!

Is carbon monoxide the same stuff as household gas itself…? don't know..

I would have thought that sensing a build up of gas would be more appropriate…but I hope to be educated….

…Bob…

You didn't look too hard for residential gas detectors – try the following link, or a Google search for "gas detectors uk".

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Gas-Detectors/b?ie=UTF8&node=1939548031

If you have gas burning heaters or water heating units, for best safety, you should have a smoke alarm, a CO alarm, and a gas detector. They are not expensive compared to other things in the home and may save your life if a fault develops in gas burning equipment. I used to work for a smoke alarm firm and believe me having the alarms is worth the money. They should be changed every 10 years too, as the sensors degrade over time. Also wise to change batteries at least once a year, preferably every 6 months. Every home or apartment should have at least one smoke alarm, regardless of whether there are combustion appliances or not.

I'm sure there will be the usual bunch of forum responses from the know-alls arguing this is over the top H&S nonsense and is not necessary, but while I worked in the industry we cooperated with fire departments on post-incident investigations. After seeing many horrific results of CO poisoning and terrible fires with multiple fatalities in these investigations I am extremely careful and fussy about gas and smoke alarms.

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

Cheap implementation against high potential harm.

What's not to like about alarms.?

Martin

[modeng2000Participant @modeng2000]

You must have been in the right place Bob, I had to pay for my detector offered by a British Gas engineer when our boiler was serviced. We have a service agreement with BG but he still wanted money!

Edited By modeng2000 on 06/12/2017 15:29:35

[Bob McParticipant @bobmc91481]

Thanks to all for your replies..

I don't know why I didn't see the 'gas detectors' as some of you have listed but it was a while ago since I looked..probably forgotten…. links much appreciated.

As I understand it then… the carbon monoxide detector will detect household gas but it is best to have a gas detector as well.

By the way the free fitting service is something to do with the Fire Service, if you are over 65 you are an 'At Risk' person, the chap who turned up checked exit points and gas installations and gave some tips on safety issues and fitted two detectors, I thought it was really good.

Again thanks for your replies…..

…Bob…

[Alan Waddington 2Participant @alanwaddington2]

Bob

You are getting confused…..

A Carbon Monoxide detector will NOT detect a natural gas escape. They only detect Carbon Monoxide which is odourless and kills you silently.

The best detector for a natural gas leak is your nose. although natural gas is also odourless, the smell is a chemical added by the gas provider at source to provide evidence to our sense of smell that gas is present.

The biggest risk from a gas leak is not being "gassed", it's from it igniting and exploding.

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

If you notice your gas fire is burning with a yellow flame it is probably not getting enough air supply. Simply hoovering out the dust build up in the inlet vents usually sorts mine out. I can only agree with the comments above re smoke and CO alarms. I have a smoke alarm in the workshop which I've tied into the lights. I then don't get spurious alarms when I'm doing a bit of silver soldering, but if anything is smouldering after I've come out it woud let me know

[SamsarandaParticipant @samsaranda]

Recently had a log burner installed by a HETAS registered installer it is mandatory that they fit a carbon monoxide detector in the same room as the log burner. In fact fitting a log burner in a dwelling is no longer a DIY job, it has to comply with building regulations and can only legally be fitted by said HETAS registered installer.

Dave W

[Alan Waddington 2Participant @alanwaddington2]

Posted by Samsaranda on 06/12/2017 19:05:52:

Recently had a log burner installed by a HETAS registered installer it is mandatory that they fit a carbon monoxide detector in the same room as the log burner. In fact fitting a log burner in a dwelling is no longer a DIY job, it has to comply with building regulations and can only legally be fitted by said HETAS registered installer.

Dave W

People have died in tents from CO poisoning, due to having a barbecue inside……The danger is real

[V8EngParticipant @v8eng]

As somebody who lives in a Bungalow between two story houses, both with wood burners I am fed up with fumes surrounding (and entering) our property every winter.

Ban wood burners for ever, except perhaps in very remote property.

Edited By V8Eng on 06/12/2017 20:35:39

[Roderick JenkinsParticipant @roderickjenkins93242]

Posted by Samsaranda on 06/12/2017 19:05:52:

Recently had a log burner installed by a HETAS registered installer it is mandatory that they fit a carbon monoxide detector in the same room as the log burner. In fact fitting a log burner in a dwelling is no longer a DIY job, it has to comply with building regulations and can only legally be fitted by said HETAS registered installer.

Dave W

I'm sure that is the case but wood burning stoves are readily available from e.g. MachineMart. While most of us would probably baulk at self installation of a gas fire, fitting a wood burning stove seems to be straightforward if your are not aware of the perils. I believe that the biggest cause of CO deaths in the UK home is now from wood burners – gas fire deaths have gone right down.

Rod

[nigel jones 5Participant @nigeljones5]

I wouldnt sleep easy if we didnt have CO alarms in the house and caravan. How many of you have them in the workshop? I fitted one recently and was horrified at the levels reached when using the gas torch – through the roof and an hour later the alarm was still going strong. A level of 70 ppm will cause ill effect, levels of 400 may cause severe headache…mine was at 700. I went for a long walk in the fresh air.

[Bob McParticipant @bobmc91481]

Thanks again to all who have replied…

I don't mind being put right on this one … thanks Allan W for spelling it out.. I really do appreciate the responses and will now be ordering a gas det asap…. will make a nice Xmas pressie for the Missus…!!

rgds….Bob..

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

Any kind of airflow/ventilation in a building is going to reduce the risk considerably, as the fatality could only occur in an area where the gas has been allowed to build up.

Also if I were sleeping in this room with a gas heater or wood burner then a CO alarm would go without saying.

Are not gas heaters fitted with safety mechanisms these days that automatically cut off the supply?

Michael W

Edited By Michael-w on 06/12/2017 22:42:43

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

Many will know but some will not.

This is for the benefit of those that don't.

The heams in heamoglobin operate as both Oxygen and CO2 transports. Heamoglobin picks up Oxygen via the lung walls and is transported around the body. When an acidic environment is encountered (area of high dissolved CO2) the Oxygen is released and CO2 is picked up. On returning to the lungs the CO2 is released and the cycle continues.

Carbon monoxide binds strongly to Heamoglobin and renders heamoglobin inactive for a considerable time. So just removing the affected person to clear air does not effect an instant cure.

It is also interesting to note that it is the presence of CO2 in the lung that triggers the breathe response which is why giving an unconscious person Oxygen can actually cause them to stop breathing.

regards Martin

[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

Posted by Michael-w on 06/12/2017 22:41:20:

Any kind of airflow/ventilation in a building is going to reduce the risk considerably, as the fatality could only occur in an area where the gas has been allowed to build up.

Also if I were sleeping in this room with a gas heater or wood burner then a CO alarm would go without saying.

Are not gas heaters fitted with safety mechanisms these days that automatically cut off the supply?

Michael W

Edited By Michael-w on 06/12/2017 22:42:43

I might be wrong but I recall being told by a gas installer that it's not legal to install an open fire or open flue boiler in a bedroom – due to the risk of CO. He'd just come across an open flue back boiler in a room the vendor was describing as a bedroom and was obliged to disconnect it for safety.

Again, I'm not an expert but I've not heard of CO detectors being built in to heaters. Presumably the emphasis is on ensuring correct installation (see above) and adequate ventilation. The building regs specify ventilation requirements although often the retrofitting of double glazing almost completely seals up what were previously fairly "well ventilated"(!) houses. As well as the increased risk of CO, it seems to result in mould and damp quite often.

Murray

[SamsarandaParticipant @samsaranda]

Rod, I appreciate that wood burning stoves are readily available everywhere but it is still contrary to building regulations to fit one if you are not a registered installer, it may look a simple task but is a do it yourselfer aware of all the regulations that apply, you need the training to be fully aware of all the regulations. As a trained aircraft technician many years ago , I knew the aircraft systems and the principles of flight but I wouldnt attempt to fly an aircraft without the relevant pilot training.

Dave W

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