First Lathe Advice

[michael guilfordParticipant @michaelguilford81239]

Hi,

I am new to this forum, so HI!

I am not really a model engineer, so please excuse my ignorance.

I am looking to get a small bench top lathe. I want to use it for prototyping and adapting bicycle components, (so mainly alumnium alloys) and also general tinkering.

I would like to be able to cut threads on it, and possibly adapt it for milling if the accessories are available.

I have looked into various different new/2nd hand options but could really do with a bit more insight. At the moment i have looked at: 2nd hand hobby mat (currently on ebay), new proxxon/axminster etc (various other chinese lathes), Peatool (no thread cutting capabilities) and SIEG.

I am reluctant to spend loads of money on my first lathe, as i want to find out how much I am going to use it first.

Thanks in advance.

Michael

[michael guilfordParticipant @michaelguilford81239]

I am looking for a lathe and advice

[Barnaby WildeParticipant @barnabywilde70941]

A few years back I remember being in a similar situation, except I wanted to make bits for motorbikes.

There are so many Qu's that need asking & answering before anyone can recommend which lathe is best for you.

All I can offer is sit down & think about what you want to make then go out & find which size & capability of machine will cope. I know it's a lot of research (I've been there !) but it will pay in the end.

I would not buy 2nd hand until you know what you need to look for, in many cases this also applies when buying new.

P.S. If you buy a serviceable lathe at the right price 2nd hand, then you should be able to offload it at roughly the same price, which means a little experimentation need cost not a lot !

[Martin CottrellParticipant @martincottrell21329]

Hi Michael and welcome to the forum.

Have you considered a second hand Myford ML7 lathe? You can pick up a reasonable model, usually with 3 & 4 jaw chucks & perhaps a drill chuck for the tail stock plus a few cutting tools for a few hundred pounds. With this, you will be well equipped to "have a go" with a machine that you can easily sell on if you find the hobby is not for you. The benefit of the Myford is that for decades it has been THE tool of choice for many model engineers and as such there are a multitude of tools and accessories that can be made or purchased to greatly extend the scope of the basic machine. Such accessories will allow such diverse activities as gear cutting, slotting, milling etc. to be carried out on the one machine. I started off in a similar way with an old ML7 with no previous experience of lathe work, having only ever previously cut metal with a hacksaw!

I'm sure you will have plenty of differing advise as many people take a variety of different routes to achieve the same goal. For what it is worth, this is the way I started out and it worked well for me!

Kind regards, Martin.

[NJHParticipant @njh]

Michael

Good advice from Mick.

The way you ask your question is like saying " I think I would like a car – which one should I buy?" It's a question that is almost impossible to answer. You must first be clear in your own mind just what you want to DO with your lathe. Do bear in mind that when buying new the cost of the basic machine will be only half the story. Chucks, tools, drills etc. etc will all need to be added in. When buying S/H you will often get useful accessories as part of the package but, against that, you will have no knowledge of the history and usage of the machine. If you are new to the game try to recruit a knowledgeable friend to accompany you on any viewings of S/H stuff.

I would, at one time, have said that going to a model engineering show to see new machines, turn the handles and chat to the stallholder ( and other visitors) was a way to get a feel for the equipment but, it seems, that suppliers attendance at shows is less frequent in recent times. One guy who does get good reports on this forum is Ketan at Arceurotrade ( see ad at right of this column) . I don't know the guy personally but when he posts here he talks good sense and might well be able to advise you in your quest.

Whatever you decide good luck in your search – you will find a lathe the most useful and adaptable of machines and, with a well equipped workshop, you can make or fix almost anything.

( I say this from the perspective of one who has just come in from my workshop where I cut off the end caps from two bamboo knitting needles, shortened the needles, drilled out the end caps and refitted them to the needles. Model engineering ?? – well no, not directly, but just think of the brownie points I gained for some future request to management! )

Norman

[Brian WoodParticipant @brianwood45127]

Hello Michael,

Welcome aboard.

I can speak with about 65 years of Myford experience behind me. I agree with Martin that an ML7 would make an excellent starter for 10 and it will hold its value well if you look after it. TEE publishing sell useful books on the model, Ian Bradley's book will give you a lot of insight and background.

Weight is about 150 kg all up and you see them being offered in the sales section of this forum. I think that would be a safer place to buy from than leaping into ebay for example, you need to be careful there and know what to avoid.

A good bet is to take someone with you to view and assess whatever you have an interest in buying, don't just trust the seller, there is a great deal that can be concealed under a new paint job for example. I would be happy to help at a reasonable radius of Thirsk N Yorks

Good hunting, it's an interest for life!

Brian

Edited By Brian Wood on 12/02/2014 21:08:30

Edited By Brian Wood on 12/02/2014 21:11:55

[Peter G. ShawParticipant @peterg-shaw75338]

Hi Michael,

When I first became involved in this hobby, I bought a S/H Hobbymat. Eventually I found that there was something wrong with it, cutting convex when facing I believe. On removing the screwcutting chart from the front, I then found a deep and long hole in the headstock casting. To be fair, CZ Scientific, the then importers, did change the machine for a new one.

Eventually though, I found myself trying to cram work into it that was too large for it, and started looking for a larger replacement. What I then realised was that I now knew enough to know that I didn't know enough about lathes to be able to avoid a S/H dud. I therefore bought new.

I looked into prices, compared specifications etc and bought my present lathe. It's no longer available so it's not worth mentioning. Myfords were seriously expensive, so out of the question, but on the credit side they did have a lot of accessories, a gap bed and a wide range of speeds. The 918 type lathe was I think the cheapest. It was also the lightest and it is my understanding that mass, or weight, is a "good" thing when machining. I also noted that the 918 had a screwcutting gearbox, which is fine until you come to a pitch which is unavailable – none of the others had one. It also had the least number of speeds and had the least travel on tailstock and top-slide. On the credit side, it had the highest centre height and is still available today I believe if you look around. Possibly the 920 is a slightly longer machine.

In the end, it boils down to: are you willing to take a risk on S/H? Then you need to start considering the specifications remembering that regardless of size, you will end up trying to cram work into it which is really too large.

Good luck in your quest.

Regards,

Peter G. Shaw

ps. If I could go back to when I first started some 23 years ago, with today's knowledge I would have bought a metric version of either a 5" Boxford B series lathe or a Boxford ME10 or 10A. Today, I wouldn't because of their age.

[Martin CottrellParticipant @martincottrell21329]

Posted by NJH on 12/02/2014 20:53:33:

Michael

( I say this from the perspective of one who has just come in from my workshop where I cut off the end caps from two bamboo knitting needles, shortened the needles, drilled out the end caps and refitted them to the needles. Model engineering ?? – well no, not directly, but just think of the brownie points I gained for some future request to management! )

Norman

Nice one Norman, there's no sweeter brownie point than one earned whilst tinkering in the workshop!

Martin.

[michael guilfordParticipant @michaelguilford81239]

Thanks for the advice so far.

I'll try and be a bit more specific, but I am not sure what questions I should be asking.

I am mostly looking at turning/milling aluminium. As most of my work revolves around bicycles, the maximum diameter I am looking to turn is around 50mm. The depth of things I could imagine turning could be up to 400mm. My first job is adapt some quick release style hubs to take a larger diameter quick release skewer (thru bolt), here is a exploded view of a typical bicycle hub, although this is not the one i am working with http://www.hopetech.com/webtop/modules/_repository/documents/XCFrontHubExploded.pdf. I would be looking at making parts 2,4 and 5 in that diagram. Part 2 is ~110mm long. In this example i might also want to thread parts 2,4 and 5, so that 4/5 screw onto 2.

Quite a lot of what i will be doing is drilling/boring.

I had a look at ML7 lathes but I think they are going to be out of my price range, as I dont know want to buy a rubbish one and a good one appears to be £1000 +. The ML7 is apparently pretty heavy, and I need to be able to move it by myself.

[michael guilfordParticipant @michaelguilford81239]

Peter, thanks for the reply. That gives me too more things to say. One, i am unlikely to be wanting to cut anything thats too big for the lathe, unless its something i shouldnt be doing anyway (like turning wood). Also, I might want to copy threads that are not standard pitches. What other sorts of screwcutting mechanism is there?

The other thing, is the maximum diamter that i can get through the main shaft (dont know the technical term), as in if i was turning something long but only want to have a short length exposed from the chuck.

 

This is the hobbymat lathe i am looking at. It looks quite tidy, and the workshop looks quite tidy as well which is a good sign http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/301091181088?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2648

Edited By michael guilford on 12/02/2014 21:21:44

[Anonymous]

Michael, first welcome to the forum. Looking at the parts you mention the only difficulty I can see is what looks like a radial spline on part 5. The rest should be simple turning. One thing to think about is the threads you may need to cut, are they metric or imperial and what pitches or threads per inch? Imperial on an imperial lathe and metric on a metric lathe are simple, but imperial on a metric lathe or metric on an imperial lathe are a bit trickier. If you need to cut odd threads you may be better off with change gears rather than a screwcutting gearbox. At least you can then fiddle with the arrangements of gears, or even make. or buy. a special gear as required.

Don't get too hung up about weight, it is surprising what you can move yourself. I moved this grinder, weighing 600kg, entirely by myself, including a trip round the M4, M25 and M11:

The shaper lurking inside the right hand side of the garage was moved in similar fashion with the help of a friend, it weighs over 1000kg.

Regards,

Andrew

[NobbyParticipant @nobby]

HI Michael
Welcome to this forum. As Martin said consider a myford ML 7 or super seven . they have a nice X slide table that you can fit attachments including a vertical slide for milling . and a back tool post . some small lathe's dont have this option
Regards Nobby

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Sooner than go for a Myford I'd go for a Boxford.

Larger, bigger spindle bore and price for size they are a lot cheaper than a Myford.

Myford have a name and mystique about them they don't really deserve

You should be able to get an equivalent Boxford for 1/2 to 3/4's the price of a Myford.

[MICHAEL WILLIAMSParticipant @michaelwilliams41215]

When first introduced the Myford series of lathes were relatively cheap and miles better than anything else available to home workshop people at the time .

With so many of them in use a definite culture developed of ‘ Myford users ‘ and all those articles and attachment designs appeared .

Unfortunately the prices just went up and up while the design stood still and over time they became less attractive .

With the demise of ‘old’ Myford things have changed anyway .

Second hand prices are often ridiculously high now and , sad to say , a new imported lathe from one of the more reputable suppliers is probably a better bet for most beginners .

If you want a Myford anyway look for a cheap one – don’t pay the very high dealer prices .

There is an active market in used Myfords – word of mouth , clubs , local paper adverts and auctions often yield servicable machines at low cost .

As regards basic question of lathe choice :

No amount of catalogue information or personal advice is as good as getting your hands on a few lathes and getting the feel of the different types .

I and plenty of other people would be happy to show you lathes in use – might even let you have a go .

Michael Williams .

Edited By MICHAEL WILLIAMS on 13/02/2014 11:01:42

[Peter G. ShawParticipant @peterg-shaw75338]

Michael,

i am unlikely to be wanting to cut anything thats too big for the lathe

Never say never. Sooner or later, it WILL happen!

You ask about cutting non-standard pitches.

All non-gearbox screwcutting lathes can cut all sorts of pitches and by selection of the correct cutting tool, with different forms, eg 47½°, 55°, 60° etc. The fact that screw charts, such as that on the front of the Hobbymat, give certain pitches does not mean that they cannot cut others – all it requires is sitting down with pencil & paper and working it out. Len Mason's book, "Using the Small Lathe", can help in this respect by explaining the theory.

Gearbox lathes also are not restricted to the provided ratios, but as I understand it, it does mean changing gears between the gearbox and the mandrel drive. Disclaimer: I have never used a gearbox lathe, only read about them, but Martin Cleeve's book "Screwcutting the Lathe" will help.

Both the above books may be – should be – available from the local library.

One other point about the provided charts. It is quite possible that doing your own calculations may reveal a combination which is more accurate than that supplied by the manufacturer: I believe the Myford charts are some that can be improved upon. I did once write a computer program for my lathe and it came up with hundreds, maybe thousands, of combinations.

In respect of mandrel size, you will need to look at the stated mandrel bore. I don't remember what the Hobbymat was; my own is 20mm, whilst I believe that the Myford 7 series have two sizes as the later ones had this so-called big bore.

In respect of weight, my own benchtop lathe weighs 125 kg. Yes, I moved it from West Yorkshire to Cumbria in a small trailer with as much as possible removed. It still took some lifting into position even with a Haltrac hoist. Perhaps in future I will need to get assistance.

Regards,

Peter G. Shaw

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Don't let the weight of a machine put you off, You don't move it every week but you will probably use it every week so features are far more important than weight.

 

Even if you have to pay to get it moved, the payback on a more useful lathe cannot be measured.

 

[ EDIT ]

You mentioned having to turn 400mm, that is far out of the range of any of the machines mentioned so far and it that is a criteria that you need then you are into the realms of small industrial machines so forget any self imposed weight limit. This is bordering on big boys toys

Edited By John Stevenson on 13/02/2014 14:17:32

[NJHParticipant @njh]

Hi John

That made me sit up a bit – but when I re-read Michael's posts I think it is 50mm dia and 400mm LENGTH that are his maximum requirements.

( Well within the scope of a Myford then )

Yes 400 mm dia. would be a different kettle of fish!

Cheers

Norman

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

If you don't know what you want why not just get something very cheap to play with. You'll soon learn how to improve things and what the limitations are. When you are more experienced you can change it for something well matched for your needs.

I started with a 1920s Edgar lathe for £50 which I used for a few years for vintage car restoration before changing it for a 10F Atlas. The latter is a relatively light machine with 450 mm between centres so it would cope with your 400 mm length and it has power crossfeed as standard. They become available SH occasionally for about £200 – £300.

Russell.

[I.M. OUTAHEREParticipant @i-m-outahere]

The sieg c6 is 400mm between centres and probably a better option than buying 2nd hand

there is also the option of the long bed version at 550 mm bc.

you're not going to get much for a couple of hundred quid and with myford you will pay more for the name and unless you know what you're looking at you will end up buying junk that needs fixing or even worse is unrepairable.

My Hafco al50g is 500 bc and only 100kg and is mounted on a bench that is on wheels so I can move it around if I wish.

Yes a light machine but it does all I ask of it .

Give ARC EUROTRADE a call and check some pricing etc as you will be surprised at what you can get for a similar price as a used myford and it will be new not flogged out.

You need to be careful with how much you have hanging out of the back of the lathe spindle as it can start to wobble and end up whipping around, much better to put one end in the chuck and use a steady to support the other end for machining.

Ian

[Bob PerkinsParticipant @bobperkins67044]

Hi Michael and welcome to the forum. Slotdriller gets my vote. Buy a new sieg machine. A C4 or C6. I think used used machines are ok If you can buy from a seller you trust, you know what to look for or you can correct any problems that you may find with it once you get it home and start to poke about with it. My knowledge as a newbie to the hobby didn't meet these criteria so I bought a SIEG SC4. It worked straight out of the box after a minimal clean up. Easy to use for screw cutting but think about the threads you want to cut.

Bob..

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Posted by NJH on 13/02/2014 15:44:42:

Hi John

That made me sit up a bit – but when I re-read Michael's posts I think it is 50mm dia and 400mm LENGTH that are his maximum requirements.

( Well within the scope of a Myford then )

Yes 400 mm dia. would be a different kettle of fish!

Cheers

Norman

Dur,

repeat after me,

Learn to read properly

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