Federation Boiler certificates UK

[SteamcoalnzParticipant @steamcoalnz]

Hi,

With regard to my previous post, can anyone briefly explain the regime under which boilers are certified with regard to the issuing of the 'Federation" certificate.

 

i have recently purchased from the U.K two steam items, one a vertical VFT boiler and the other a Don Young design locomotive and both have come with certificates from the owners and also a blue booklet issued by the "Southern Federation".

 

Can someone explain the relationship of this "Southern Federation" and what it means for the boiler. Does it comprise registered constructors or the organisation that undertakes the initial hydraulic test. Both my boilers have been manufactured by commercial companies, one being Cheddar Models for the Don Young engine.

Are all boilers issued with a "Federation" certificate? Is there a Northern Federation. What about private boiler constructors? Can I research the history of my boiler online??

Just interested to learn about the certification process, especially when purchasing from overseas.

Hope someone can enlighten me.

 

With thanks

Hayden

Link to earlier post added by JasonB

Edited By JasonB on 15/01/2014 12:43:52

[SteamcoalnzParticipant @steamcoalnz]

[NilochParticipant @niloch]

There is a thread on the Model Engineering Clearing House Forum which is called Boiler Design, Construction and Testing which will probably answer your questions.

Edited By Niloch on 15/01/2014 07:35:33

[Harry WilkesParticipant @harrywilkes58467]

In a nut shell and I'm sure someone will correct me if wrong ME clubs in the UK are in the main members of a federation, the Southern Federation of Model Engineers and likewise the Northern Federation of Model Engineers these two bodies along with other interested parties such as Insurance representatives draw up the rules to which boilers are tested. ME clubs will then appoint a boiler tester/tester's within their club who will test a members boiler and issue a certificate, this certificate then allows the member to take out the necessary insurance to use the boiler in public.

Hope this is of help

H

[DustyParticipant @dusty]

I beleive I am right in saying that any certificate issued under the auspices of 'The Southern Federation' is only transferable if the person to whom it is transfered is a member of a Club which is affiliated to one of the four Societies or associations shown in the 'Blue Book'. I also doubt that any commercial boiler builder will issue you with a duplicate test certificate without first examining the boiler. I would say that for your own peace of mind and no doubt your insurance company a test from a qualified boiler inspector will be advisable.

[SteamcoalnzParticipant @steamcoalnz]

Thank you all for your replies.

It is a pity that an engine is offered for sale buy this company without any paperwork. I find it difficult to believe that a commercial trader themselves would even entertain trading an engine like a Sweet Pea without an accompanying certificate as it must make it terribly difficult to sell on.

As an overseas prospective customer, no matter what the price or how fine or not the engine is, to me the engine is of nil value unless it has that original certificate and to greater risk to buy

I am very happy with my two purchases to date so maybe two out of three is not so bad. I will pass on this one unless something turns up.

thanks.

Hayden

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I don't think having the original hydralic test certificates will make a lot of difference to value or safety especially if your engine is getting on for 30 years old.

What really matters is the most recent test and if that is still current although a full history is nice to have. If the engine you are thinking of buying has no certificates then either get the seller to have it tested prior to sale or look elsewhere.

It is sometimes the case that when a model engineer dies their models come up for sale but their relatives cannot locate the paperwork, this is usually reflected in the asking price as an uncertified boiler/model is of less valve than one with all the correct paperwork.

 

J

Edited By JasonB on 15/01/2014 12:47:47

Edited By JasonB on 15/01/2014 12:48:43

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

You should have two – hydraulic test and steam test,. The steam test only last a year so is highly likely to have lapsed if the owner isn't a regular club steamer. If the unit has been with a collector or family or just a guy who got a bit too old to lift it they probably wouldn't bother to renew regularly. It also upsets club boiler inspectors when people just come along to a club to get a 'ticket' for free to make some extra dosh themselves.

If you know which club the previous owner or builder was at they might have the old records. Recently the grandson of the original builder of my loco passed me its first certificate he had found. Nice for the collection but invalid for about 40 years.

You may also get some special cases. I know someone who is a professional engineer in the pressure equipment industry so obtained approval from insurers to certify his father's boiler. Normally though a professional boiler inspector would be far too expensive for use by hobbyists.

Edited By Bazyle on 15/01/2014 13:15:46

[ChrisHParticipant @chrish]

I used to be a 'boiler inspector', or pressure vessels surveyor, in an earlier life many moons ago. There were then no qualifications as such specific to becoming a boiler inspector, before the insuring company took you on you had to have qualifications relating to your previous career or employment; in my case I had a Combined First Class Certificate of Competency as an engineer in the Merchant Navy.

The Statutory Regulations then existing governing the inspection of pressure vessels did not specify a particular qualification either, they just required the survey to be carried out by a 'Competent Person'. No specific definition of a competent person existed either – gets very vague doesn't it – though the definition used by the insurance company boiled down to as 'a person with the knowledge and experience of the faults likely to be found and where to look to find them', or words very similar. As I said, many moons ago.

All this may well not be the case now but it was then and the system worked very well. Mind you, we then had a Merchant Navy to supply surveyors and we had a widespread, numerous and productive manufacturing industry, or industries, in which to employ them.

I set this down to illustrate that a 'qualified boiler inspector' may not be qualified in the way the term might suggest, and only out of interest, as at the end of the day who cares providing the signature is on the right bit of paper that certifies your boiler!'

[IanTParticipant @iant]

All the Boiler inspectors I know have been appointed by their Club (or Society) and are usually known as being experienced (& well respected) Model Engineers within their own modelling communities. Both Federations have clear guidelines for boiler testing and although you do not need any formal qualifications to become a Boiler Tester, you do need to know what you are doing and to adhere to the guidelines.

So there are elements of both trust and reputation involved and in my view no Club or Society would risk appointing someone unsuitable or unqualified for the role.

Regards,

IanT

[SteamcoalnzParticipant @steamcoalnz]

IanT

I acknowledge that the status of boiler inspectors in clubs needs to be high for the very reasons you state. In our small club we have three appointed but I do not attain too much confidence in there previous experience. It is a requirement that they have built boilers themselves and have a history of competent construction behind them. I believe therefore that this leads to an illegal status in our club for these three committee members.

Unfortunately it is a difficult position for myself but with the diminishing experience of model engineers, especially in boiler construction it will only get worse and i might have to seek another club with more knowledgable members.

I have asked the purveyor of the for sale Sweet Pea engine for more information in the meantime. Will see what his response is, otherwise it might be a no go item.

Thankyou all for your helpful information.

Hayden

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

Just for the record it's Southern Federation and Northern Association. Location of a club is not a reliable indication of which they affiliate to.

Neil

[IanTParticipant @iant]

Hayden,

Whilst it is useful if the boiler Tester has built boilers in the past, as far as I'm aware, it is not actually a requirement. He may for instance have many years experience of steaming/running/maintaining steam engines, whilst never having built one.

The competency required is that they should be able to carry out the test as laid down in the current Federation (or Association) guidelines (e.g. Green Book). There is a degree of latitude in one or two areas (testing of superheaters for instance) where an Inspector is allowed to use their own discretion – but by and large – a boiler will pass the test (or not). So the matter (to my mind) is one of being able to trust that an inspector carries out his duties "by the book" and does not allow (say) personal loyalties or friendship to influence the outcome.

Outside of the actual test, there may well be other issues arising, where it may be very helpful to get solid advice from the Tester (and most boiler testers will be able to provide this) but I'm not aware that it is mandated.

So I'm not sure how your club has an "Illegal status" if the testers carry out the test as stipulated?

I gather from another post that you are thinking of buying a 5" loco without a current certificate. The boiler is a very expensive part of the engine to have to replace, so my advice to anyone thinking of buying an engine is always to insist it has a current certificate. If the price is high, then the Seller (in my view) should have the engine examined and get a current certificate before they sell it. Otherwise, the price should reflect the lack of this important documentation.

A friend of mine (who sold live steam models for a living) told me once that (without a current boiler certificate) he simply valued the model at the cost of the castings (unless of course it was a 'display' model. Not bad advice.

Regards,

IanT

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

From some information Hayden has given me it would seem that this loco was completed about 20yrs ago with a commercial boiler but has never been steamed.

My thoughts on this are that there will be no certificate issued by a federation, club etc as a steam test could not have been carried out.

It would be nice to have the commercial makers original 2x hydralic test cert but there is some confusion if this is available or not.

There is a very slight chance that the completed loco was given a 1.5x hydralic test but I fell this is unlikely.

J

[SteamcoalnzParticipant @steamcoalnz]

Jason.

The loco in question is the Sweet Pea advertised with Antique Steam. Just to clarify the situation.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Yes I did look at it after your PM.

J

[IanTParticipant @iant]

Any new "commercial" boiler of this size would normally have a 'CE' mark these days of course Jason.

Given it's age (pre May 2002), that it has not been steamed and has no manufacturer shell test docs, I think our boiler testers would probably ask that it first be shell tested at x2 (as they would for instance any 'existing' boiler that had been modified) before they would do a x1.5 with all the fittings.

And without current certificates the engine could not even be 'steamed' at our events (or other Clubs of course) because of insurance issues. Nothing to stop the owner running it privately but that would be risky with an untested boiler.

So best to get the Seller to sort it out – or deduct the price of a new/replacement boiler. It would be hard to sell a car without a current MOT certificate and we should think of 'second-user' steam engines in the same way in my view.

BTW – I think many boiler testers would help out a "non-member" with a boiler that needed testing (providing of course they were asked first before just turning up!). Whilst boiler testers cannot accept payment for a test, I know one who accepts 'donations' for his time, all of which are given to a local Childrens Hospital. He's raised quite a bit to buy Scanners for them over the years.

Regards,

IanT

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Ian, thats basically what I have said to Hayden. Either get the seller to have it tested or adjust the price as the advertised one said it had the makers certificate which it now seems is not available.

I also asked if there were any other markings on the boiler such as test and/or working pressures, without these it would have thought it would need a 2x test.

J

[SteamcoalnzParticipant @steamcoalnz]

Good news.

The boiler certificates HAVE been located and i will ask to view them.

They were issued by RC Smith ( Formerly TVM ) of Baddersley Ensor,nr Atherstone, Warks.

Ring any bells??

I think for an engine of this type it would be prudent to have a current boiler ticket issued, preferably to 2x working pressure considering it has not been steamed prior to purchase and export.

Great help chaps, thanks

Hayden

[IanTParticipant @iant]

That's spooky Hayden.

I used to live in Baddersley (which is not exactly a huge place) many years ago. I was lucky enough to stumble on a wonderful community up there and to be blessed with really great neighbours. We still try and get back to see them when we are up that way. It was a mining community and they are the salt of the earth.

Never heard of RC Smith (or TVM) but then I'm sure there were a lot of small companies in the area that I wasn't aware of.

Regards,

IanT

[IanTParticipant @iant]

Just been looking at the SFMES boiler test code in connection with something else and noticed that Boiler Inspectors are only authorised to test boilers belonging to members of their own Society/Club – ref: paragraph 4.6

There seems to be only one exception, where a Society/Club can ask an Inspector from another Society/Club to test a boiler where their own inspector feels he doesn't have the requisite experience but that wouldn't help someone (a non-member) who wanted to get a boiler tested prior to it's sale (a relative of a deceased person for instance?).

So my apologies if I've misled anyone with regards to getting a boiler tested before they sell it – it seems (technically) that they need to be a member of a Club or Society first. In the larger scheme of things, where Club membership for the year may be £20 (or so?) it may well still be worth the Sellers while to join just to obtain a current certificate (as it should add much more to the value).

However, I thought I'd better correct my earlier post, which was based on the assumption that this would be a very sensible and/or desirable thing for someone to do (Member – or not).

Regards,

IanT

[wendy jacksonParticipant @wendyjackson]

Be very careful dealing with antique steam, not the best of dealers by a long shot.michael

[Harry WilkesParticipant @harrywilkes58467]

" where Club membership for the year may be £20 (or so?) it may well still be worth the Sellers while to join just to obtain a current certificate (as it should add much more to the value)" not a positive reason to join a club and use it's resources this is why my club and many others are refusing this type of member. So better get it tested by one of the independent boiler inspectors then sell it.

[IanTParticipant @iant]

That's certainly one point of view Harry and if it was someone trading "commercially", then I'd probably agree.

However, most of the enquiries we used to get (when I was involved in such things) tended to be from individuals either related to the 'former' owner of an engine or a friend of the family acting on their behalf. We tried to help where we could and personally I was always happy when one of these locos ended up in a good home at a fair price.

Regards,

IanT

[Harry WilkesParticipant @harrywilkes58467]

Ian my club are more than happy to help in such circumstances but I was referring to someone who simply wants to join the club with the sole intention of getting a boiler cert and you never see them again !

Cheers H

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