Fake boiler certificates

[George RayParticipant @georgeray48079]

May I bring the following to your attention.

Over the last three weeks I have been involved in trying to get to the bottom of a fake/forged boiler certificate for a locomotive purchased on eBay. Not by me I add.
The Boiler certificate was allegedly issued by the Andover Society, I became involved as the holder of the records of boilers that have been tested by Andover. I was given a certificate number which did not correspond with any certificate issued by us. When the scan of the certificate reached me it was for a locomotive previously owned by an Andover club member that he had disposed of without a valid certificate earlier this year. I was amazed however to find that I was shown as the boiler inspector together with another member of the Andover club as a witness and that the test had taken place just after the loco had been transferred. Further examination showed that the certificate number was handwritten and the WSE number was also handwritten but was also not a genuine number. The Certificate did not have a boiler capacity shown nor the bar litres. Quite clearly whoever forged the certificate did not know how it should be filled in because there were other anomalies obvious to anyone who knows how the certificate is intended to be completed.
Then last week looking through the locos on eBay I came across a Rob Roy advertised with a boiler certificate not however claiming to be from Andover this time and the picture of the certificate indicated that exactly the same form of fakery had taken place, the handwriting looked very similar and there were similar errors in its completion.
It looks as if a blank certificate had been copied in both cases and then the details entered from other previous certificates or the blue card.
eBay have been informed by the unfortunate purchaser of the first loco who has received a repayment from eBay because of reasons unconnected with the certificate, but can I give a heads up to anyone going down the route of buying on eBay to make sure that if it is claimed to have an 'in-date certificate' that the certificate is seen and confirmed genuine before parting with any money.

My apologies if this is the wrong place to post this.

[George RayParticipant @georgeray48079]

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Thanks for the alert George. Copied link to my clubs boiler inspector and newsletter editor.

As a safety issue is this a criminal offence?

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

Posted by Bazyle on 07/10/2016 09:42:16:

Thanks for the alert George. Copied link to my clubs boiler inspector and newsletter editor.

As a safety issue is this a criminal offence?

It could be interpreted as a civil matter and go to a county court i think. Expensive procedure for we commoners, but a business would have the financial clout to back it.

Michael W

[Eric CoxParticipant @ericcox50497]

It could be interpreted as a civil matter

I would have thought it was fraudulent.

[KWILParticipant @kwil]

Indeed a police matter, attempting to gain pecuniary advantage by deception, let alone the potential danger.

[nigel jones 5Participant @nigeljones5]

I would have thought that producing a fake safety certificate for a pressure vessel would be quite a serious thing to do! HSE perhaps?

[Speedy Builder5Participant @speedybuilder5]

If a number of these are popping up, what is the authenticity of the ownership of the model itself ? Is this an outlet for stolen models ??
BobH

[Nick_GParticipant @nick_g]

Posted by fizzy on 07/10/2016 10:41:12:

HSE perhaps?

.

Yes I agree.

And what is more they will have their own 'in house' legal team.

Things like stating 'Civil matter' is one of the reasons why taking legal advice, medical advice and many other specialist subjects from people unqualified to do so is not a good idea on internet forums.

Nick

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

I stand by what i said because it really depends on the circumstances, if damage to persons/property has resulted from their forgery then it would be more serious and definitely a police matter.

Otherwise if hes just printing fakes it wouldn't be taken to such a high level immediately. In short, they can't just bang anyone up because they feel like it.

Michael W

Edited By Michael Walters on 07/10/2016 11:30:21

[Roderick JenkinsParticipant @roderickjenkins93242]

Posted by Speedy Builder5 on 07/10/2016 11:02:40:

If a number of these are popping up, what is the authenticity of the ownership of the model itself ? Is this an outlet for stolen models ??
BobH

Probably not. The OP says that the model had been disposed of without a valid certificate, so one assumes that the boiler was no longer serviceable. A valid boiler certificate probably at adds at least £1000 to the value of even a small 3 1/2" loco.

Forging a certificate in order to increase the value certainly seems to me to be fraudulent and therefore a criminal matter.

Rod

[Nick_GParticipant @nick_g]

Posted by Michael Walters on 07/10/2016 11:29:49:

Otherwise if hes just printing fakes it wouldn't be taken to such a high level immediately. In short, they can't just bang anyone up because they feel like it.

Michael W

Edited By Michael Walters on 07/10/2016 11:30:21

.

It's an official safety document. – Bit like an MOT certificate on your car. If a car is found to have a 'dodgy' MOT and there is a serious accident somebody is going to jail. Any insurance would also be void.

They would not be banging anyone up just because they feel like it. They would be (if it came to that) banging someone up for committing a criminal act.

Nick

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

Posted by Nick_G on 07/10/2016 11:29:28:

Posted by fizzy on 07/10/2016 10:41:12:

 

HSE perhaps?

.

Yes I agree.

And what is more they will have their own 'in house' legal team.

Things like stating 'Civil matter' is one of the reasons why taking legal advice, medical advice and many other specialist subjects from people unqualified to do so is not a good idea on internet forums.

Nick

First of all, you can't look at this from one side of the matter, he's saying its fake, the dealer may protest, he can do that no matter how blatent we think the infringement is, so therefore it's a dispute between two persons that needs to be resolved by the law, you need to prove they did that, the police will not jump to their feet on a whimsy, you have to present evidence for their (or lack of) authenticity before anything can literally happen.

Innocence til proven guilty? 

Michael W

Edited By Michael Walters on 07/10/2016 13:28:31

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

If the boiler tester and witness who's names are on the cert says it's nothing to do with them what more evidence do you want, it's a fake and whoever faked it is trying to commit fraud, get down to your local cop shop

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

If you don't have due process, then this is no better than shouting "witch!" and the folk start sharpening the daggers?

I've got to stop taking the bait on this forum. 

Michael W

Edited By Michael Walters on 07/10/2016 13:34:34

[Nick_GParticipant @nick_g]

Posted by Michael Walters on 07/10/2016 13:22:00:

you have to present evidence for their (or lack of) authenticity before anything can literally happen.

Michael W

.

Re read the initial post.

We have the certificate signed by the OP who is also the boiler inspector and he has stated it's never passed through his hands and as such it's not actually 'his' signature.

Nick

[Nick_GParticipant @nick_g]

Posted by Michael Walters on 07/10/2016 13:32:20:

I've got to stop taking the bait on this forum.

.

Nobody is baiting you.

They are just pulling you up for talking broken biscuits and bollocks.

Nick

[Gordon WParticipant @gordonw]

I thought the silly season was springtime, I suppose it is in Oz.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Clearly a police matter IMHO – forging documentation to secure a sale is fraud not misrepresentation or misdescription.

The boiler tester will probably need to sign an affidavit to the effect that the certificate was not produced by or on behalf of the club.

Neil

[KWILParticipant @kwil]

Nick_G

Whilst I agree with you in principle, I am sure there are on this Forum those who have spent more than a few moments of their career in the pursuit of legal matters!

[Nick_GParticipant @nick_g]

Posted by KWIL on 07/10/2016 14:32:26:

Nick_G

Whilst I agree with you in principle, I am sure there are on this Forum those who have spent more than a few moments of their career in the pursuit of legal matters!

.

Hi Kwil I realise that.

But as with most internet forums and sites it tends to be the ones that actually are qualified in a subject that tend not to be the most vocal.

The best in this area has got to be facebook. People asking for medical and legal advice. Often they it seems they will ask the advice of their 'friends' (90% of which they have or never will actually ever meet) They will ignore those that say such obvious things as "Go and ask your doctor" and instead take the advice of a stranger (friend) that tells them 'what they want to hear'

The internet is awash with self appointed medical experts and silks.

Nick

[George RayParticipant @georgeray48079]

I posted this as a heads up.

Because I was not defrauded the local police are not interested in pursuing the matter as a case of forgery. The purchaser now has his money back so is not interested in pursuing the matter as a matter of fraud. I did however input the information to action fraud which is the police database. I also spoke to NAME as soon as I had sufficient information to enable them to take certain steps to reduce the likelihood of repetition but in principle this could happen again if people are not aware of what constitutes a valid boiler certificate.

I believe at least in the case of the RobRoy that the seller had acquired the loco with certificates in good faith. If you are not certain about a boiler certificate speak to your boiler inspector and certainly if offered a loco with a boiler certificate check its validity. It is incumbent on us all to understand what is and is not a valid certificate.

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

It's dreadful to think that this happens in an otherwise pleasant hobby. And unsurprisingly it's the lure of greed that spurs on these charlatans.

I'm not going to say i told you so, because i'm better than that, but some refused to hear me out that theres another side to the story instead just saying get the bad guy.

I'm definitely not an expert, i never appointed myself as anything, but i do have a pretty good idea of what the police are all about and i'm afraid complicated situations like these come second to emergencies.

Otherwise i'm sure you can be correct in your assertions that i'm a bit of a clutz and obviously don't communicate my points across effectively.

If i can't make you listen, thats not your fault or perogative, it's mine and i'm sorry i'm not the word wizard i try to be. 

Michael W

Edited By Michael Walters on 07/10/2016 18:13:45

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Thanks for the warning!

Peterborough Society of Model Engineers has now warned members of this fraud, so i PLEASE ensure that your local Society/Club knows about this, if not already aware.

In my view, there is a very real risk of someone being seriously injured, eventually, as a result of a boiler failing.

Boiling water is bad enough, but steam under pressure contains a lot of energy, liable to maim any person or animal nearby.

Howard

[Anthony KendallParticipant @anthonykendall53479]

Well, the certificates are easy enough to forge and presumably the forger will get it right next time and it's no use looking for a hand-written serial number in future.

I suppose the only solution is to refer back to the originating club to check when buying, or have it retested.

The WSE is non-transferable anyway, but you might make a decision based on the fact the boiler has one.

Interestingly, this thread is focused on whether you can sue someone, rather than suggestions for solving the problem. Forget about the law – it won't happen.

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