EMG-12 Endmill Re-sharpening module

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

JS will be demonstrating it at the show, take along a few blunt cutters and have a go yourself.

£60 for a new wheel

Think JS has done over 1000 cutters with his original wheel. If you say £5 a cutter minimum that little machine has certainly paid for itself Don't think they can be dressed due to the unusual shaped edge.

Edited By JasonB on 27/04/2015 17:15:53

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Of course it's not equivalent, but this little carbide wheel makes an interesting price comparison.

Don't be misled by the price on the page [that's for a copy of the articles for the build project] … go to the drop-down list.

MichaelG.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

But you get £2.50 off if you buy them as a pair

Neil

[EVidParticipant @evid]

Simular machines are available from Vertex and Earth-Chain for End Mill Re-Sharpening even in the 4-13mm range.

They cost however double or more.

This machine is "just" another copy of a know design.

I have a Worden and a Deckel copy and would love to have this one for its instand ready setup.

[EVidParticipant @evid]

Posted by EVid on 08/05/2015 20:26:36:

Simular machines are available from Vertex and Earth-Chain for End Mill Re-Sharpening even in the 4-13mm range.

Have found another 4 chinese manufactors of machines alike.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Yes if you read the Review of the grinder in MEW it mentions these larger more industrial versions that are well beyond the pocket of a small machine shop or individual that is why ARC have gone for this version.

J

[Bill ADAMSONParticipant @billadamson95111]

Hi Guys,

Just thought I would add my comments to this thread to stir the pot a bit. I read with interest the article by John Stevenson in the MEW No. 228 and I was so impressed I immediately checked to see if I could buy an EMG-12 in Australia but no such luck.

I contacted Arc Euro Trade and they had no problem sending a unit to Australia and I wouldn't even have to pay VAT. That sounded good until I found out it would cost me £95 for freight and I would probably have to pay about £75 GST ( Aust. VAT) when it arrived. I thought very hard before I placed the order.

No, I couldn't justify buying it but then again, I have never been able to justify any tools or equipment I have bought for my hobby. I would be a lot better off financially if I had never started this model engineering hobby, but I just love it.

I only have two pet hates about making models.

1. I absolutely hate working with blunt tools. Blunt tools spoil the finished product and takes away the satisfaction of finishing a job to the best of my ability..

2. An even bigger hate than No. 1 hate, is having to stop work in the middle of a machining job to sharpen a tool before you either break the blunt tool or destroy the part you are making. Most tools like drills, lathe cutters and scrapers etc. are relatively simple to take over to the grind wheel or oil stone but not so in the case of end mills. If an end mill is not cutting well and needs sharpening, you have to take it out, get the Quorn out and set it up and then try to get all the angles right so it will cut cleanly. Although the Quorn can do a good job, it takes me a lot of time to sharpen an end mill, but worse, I can never be sure it is correctly sharpened until I try it. That is not always so easy if you have your work piece all set in your mill.

Needless to say, the concept of being able to give an end mill a quick sharpen after using it before you put it away and even better, having all your end mills ready sharpened waiting for you to use them was the clinching thought that decided me to buy a new piece of tooling that I couldn't justify.

Bill A

[Bill ADAMSONParticipant @billadamson95111]

Hi guys,

I couldn't fit this last bit in my previous post.

I am just awaiting delivery of the unit and after testing it out will let you know if it is as good as it sounds.

Bill A

[Bill ADAMSONParticipant @billadamson95111]

Hi All,

 

Well, my EMG-12 finally arrived all the way out here to Australia. It was very professionally packaged so no possible chance of damage in transit.

 

There were a couple of jobs required before I could try it, the British 3 pin electrical plug had to be changed it to an Australian 3 pin plug and I had to turn up a nylon adapter so I could connect the vacuum cleaner to the dust extraction port. That done, I was ready to try it out.

 

It was a bit scary putting the first end mill not knowing if I had all the settings right. It only took 3 or 4 seconds on each face and it was done. The sharpened end mill looked good but the real test was to try it in the mill. I couldn't believe how well it cut with such minimum sharpening. Beautiful chips came off without the slightest indication of burning or edge burr. Although I always tried to keep my end mills sharp using a Quarn but I could never get them to cut as cleanly as this first try on the new machine. I sharpened all my metric 12mm and less end mills and tested them. They all cut like new ones.

I had a box full of old imperial 3 and 4 flute end mills I picked up at a garage sale. I had never used them as they were blunt or chipped so I thought I might as well try to sharpen a few. I had to make up some new sleeves out of 20 mm dia mild steel rod to the same length as the supplied sleeves and with a 5mm grub screw in the side. Using the metric cam size closest to the diameter of the imperial cutter, I was able to quickly sharpen a 3 flute and a 4 flute cutter to the same standard as the metric cutters.

Finally, I had a 1/2" 3 flute cutter that had one face broken off completely. I kept it because it seemed too good to throw away. I ground about 3mm off the end to square up the end and I had to make a 12.7mm sleeve because it would not fit in the 12mm metric sleeve then tried to sharpen it. I thought I would have to reset it in the sleeve a few times but although it took longer than just sharpening blunt cutter, it was fully recut and sharpened in just under 3 minutes and now it is as good as new.

I can see that because the machine takes so little time to just touch up the cutting edge of a blunt cutter, I won't get hours of use out of it but it will certainly be used regularly.

Bill A

 

 

Edited By Bill ADAMSON on 24/05/2015 00:15:56

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

Well this sounds an interesting unit! Also from what people say it does a better job than a Quorn which people tend to regard as the gold standard I'm ME. how hard could it be to design and make a unit based on the same principles?

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

Anything that makes life simpler and jobs faster is worthwhile, especially at our time in life

[doubletopParticipant @doubletop]

I've had a bit of a dig around on the Chinese Alibaba site. I see they do three of these machines ERM-12 2mm-12mm, ERM-20 4mm-20mm and ERM-32 12mm-32mm. There's also an ERM-12A that appears to have a different grinding wheel.

Comments I've seen appear to suggest that there would be a preference for a larger capacity. So were I to fork out for one of these I'd like not to wish I paid a bit more for the bigger one. So are there any views on the ERM-12 vs the ERM-20?

Pete

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Thank you Bill for your report on use of the machine.

The initial goal was always to aim at new business, with the assistance of model engineers, which worked, but at the same time many model engineers outside of this forum environment also became buyers, which was very interesting.

The major demand came mainly from small workshops to include model engineers, who had read the article, followed by a few people who saw the demonstration at the show in Harrogate, and perhaps two or three from people who have read and/or participated on this thread.

For ARC to present this product, we had to commit to a large quantity. To move this stock, we had to be extreamly competitive knowing full well that this product is being pitched to a specialist market.Regardless of what anyone may think, even at the current price, the profit margin is extremely low…Mr.Wallmart comes to mind.

We have three left in stock subect to un-sold, out of a batch of thirty units. I have to say that it is a relief. Reading the initial comments at launch about this products limited attributes along with 'high' price tag was a concern, as serious investment went into this project to include CE costs and advertising.

I have the greatest of respect now for the Warcos and Chesters of this country for introducing the first milling machines and lathes into the hobby market. It is very easy for any new company to launch a product 'as a competitor' after watching someone else take the initial plunge.

To go in blind on a new product like this 'and putting your hand in your pocket to finance it' is another story. I would like to thank John Stevenson and Neil Wyatt for giving me the initial encouragement 'and push' for this project, and at the same time, thank you all for this journey of discovery.

Ketan at ARC.

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Pete – Doubletop,

What you see on Alibaba at present are various Chinese trading companies offering a similar product range.

This might be fine for anyone wishing to consider as a direct user or a back street seller without legal obligations or consequences.

For ARC to consider, we have to go through various test stages to include legal – CE compliance. For a machine which handles bigger diameter cutters we are still in the early stages of consideration. There are various compliance recommendations which we have asked the factory to consider. It took us a long time and investment to achieve this for the EMG-12. It is difficult at present to say if and when ARC will consider bigger models.

What is funny on this thread is the initial talk about how this machine is seriously expensive, to your considering to pay a higher price for a bigger model.

Ketan at ARC.

[Ian WelfordParticipant @ianwelford58739]

Ketan

although I personally am unlikely to invest in one ( unless SWMBO wants to curry favour for something?? or a lottery win?) I was extremely impressed with John and the machine at Harrogate.

The speed and accuracy were exceptional! Even a damaged end mill ground back then renewed (Thanks John!)

For the immediacy of use the cost benefit of it becomes viable. I waited to get a drill sharpener as I though I "could buy a lot of drills for the money", then discovered that breaking/ blunting size needed meant a 3 day wait to replace (bank holiday). Suddenly the benefits exceeded the costs and I duly bought one. No blunt drills now!

Thanks to you and John for bringing this to market and opening up the debate…

I did however order some Stevensons blocks as my reward for being so good at the show.

Regards Ian

[doubletopParticipant @doubletop]

John/Ketan

I'm not being critical and not looking to save 20p,as John knows I'm in NZ and rather than re-ship from the UK to NZ my initial thought is always what are the alternative options. In doing that there's a degree of due diligence to make sure that if any purchasing decision made it isn't followed by "I wish…."

I think my question has been answered that the current model on offer was selected on the basis of potential market and economics. The larger version would cost more and only offer the additional 13-20mm range, which in most cases would be less useful. However, like many using an ER32 collet chuck, having the ability to sharpen the full range of usable end mills could be appealing.

We have to thank Ketan and ARC for bringing this tool to our attention. The initial reactions on this thread were along the lines of “Why” and "Geez it's not cheap" but now there are a number out there, the comments seem to have swung to "That looks useful". I'm guessing there are a few, like me, who are going through the mental gymnastics trying to justify the outlay.

Regards

Pete

[Owain SamuelParticipant @owainsamuel55325]

Posted by Ketan Swali on 24/05/2015 19:06:

We have three left in stock subect to un-sold, out of a batch of thirty units.

Ketan at ARC.

Thanks for that, that's the prod I needed following seeing the demo at Harrogate. You should now have two left in stock….

Owain

[Douglas JohnstonParticipant @douglasjohnston98463]

I would be interested to know from Ketan if this was a one off venture or whether once the current batch are all sold they will be restocked in the future. The machines are expensive for the average one man home workshop, but if the demand was there (which would appear to be the case ) sales could take off if the economies of scale would permit a modest price reduction, or is this just wishful thinking on my part. And yes, after stating that I could not justify buying one, there is a little devil in the back of my head saying "you know you want one"

Doug

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by Owain Samuel on 25/05/2015 08:45:16:

Posted by Ketan Swali on 24/05/2015 19:06:

We have three left in stock subect to un-sold, out of a batch of thirty units.

Ketan at ARC.

Thanks for that, that's the prod I needed following seeing the demo at Harrogate. You should now have two left in stock….

Owain

Thanks Owain

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Hi Pete,

When we were going through the process of evaluating the EMG-12, and reviewing compliance requirements, we also had to go through the commercial viability.

Initially, my views on price were 'shock', and John S and Neil Wyatt calmed me down with their views on benefits of the product. Then I had to consider the ebay, back street boys and alibaba champions of this world, so discussions with the factory followed.

The factory negotiations took into consideration the compliance requirements as well as the commercial views on competition. This process was difficult, as they have a very good and well established Far Eastern market.

Also, the factory had heard this story so many times from well meaning 'Western' importers who promised them large quantities if they give the importer 'good price'. Most such importers turned out to be one to five piece buyers who didn't really give a hoot about compliance.

So, when we entered the screen, you can imagine what they were thinking. They were polite, and suggested that if we wished to compete against the Alibaba and ebayers of this world, as well as expecting the factory to consider compliance issues, we had to give certain commitments to quantity.

It is my opinion therefore, that even after you import from the U.K.legaly after deduction of U.K. VAT, plus Fedex courier, plus NZ GST of 15%, our price will still be competitive against any ebay or Alibaba trading company direct import from China into NZ for a product which may or may not be compliant to U.K./E.U rules..which in any case doesn't apply to you. This is provided you do not ask the ebay or Alibaba company to issue you with an illegal under value invoice. This is a practise which we do not do, even though it is common practise of ebay and Alibaba traders, and our politicians and Customs & Excise choose to turn a blind eye to this form of theft of revenue, and then wonder why we loose jobs. Then again, that is another story.

So you see, we too go through mental anguish, gymnastics, and due diligence through the product consideration process. As advised earlier, we are going through the same process for larger sizes, but only time will tell what will be the result

Ketan at ARC.

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Hi Doug,

I will be restocking the EMG-12 in the future, but I honestly don't know what quantity, and what price. When we brought in the first 30, the best case scenario was being sold out within one year, and worst case four years. It is always difficult to judge the saturation point, especially for a product we have never sold before.

I have discussed the price point in the response I gave to Pete, so at present the probability of price reduction is remote. The manufacturer we use is quite settled on its views on price.

Ketan at ARC.

[Owain SamuelParticipant @owainsamuel55325]

Well, now I've recovered from the shock maybe I can justify why I've just put down the money on one of these beasts. At the moment I'm time poor. Don't have the time (or the inclination, to be honest) to build a quorn, kennet, worded or any of the other designs (I hasten to add that I do not intend to disparage anyone who has built one of these). My workshop started as model engineering, grew sideways into jobbing engineering and a possible future is one where the majority of my income comes from it. So what time I have in there is to be spent either getting an earning or a largejuicyfavour(tm) job out of the door, or repairing something (usually domestic) for me.

Now I've been looking for a means of sharpening end mills for a while. Secondhand machines have appeared, clarkson's at a similar price ( if not more) to arc's offering, others ranging in size, popping up. Ideas of a homebrew effort, with some sort of a spindex mounted on one of those x/y tables, with a bench grinder had come and gone (see above paragraph).

Then this popped up, I grabbed the MEW review when it came out, saw JS demo it at harrogate, thought about it, generally ruminated, worked out how many cutters I could buy for that, found the box of blunt cutters, counted up and realised that I'd cover 1/4 of the purchase cost just re grinding them (especially when I realised it'd sharpen carbide). At that point I realised this machine could (if not pay for itself) then at least make a large hole in it's purchase cost in a few years. That's before friends, associates, random hangers on and work realise I can regrind endmills.

At that stage it was just at the level of wait until payday, close the eyes and do the deed. With a minor prompt from Ketan……

Anyway, when the beasty lands I'll get stuck in. Photos may follow.

Owain

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

What Ketan doesn't tell you, is that after four days sat on the bench, the top lifts off and goes back into orbit.

[Enough!Participant @enough]

I'm curious …. how tight is the 12mm upper size limit on the EMG-12? would it actually handle a 1/2" cutter?

[Another JohnSParticipant @anotherjohns]

Owain;

I agree – life's too short and you should focus your efforts where you wish.

The main reason that I built the Worden was to do a quick build of something that I could not find commercially – my focus is on building live steam locomotives and CNCing machinery – last thing I really needed was to go around building other machinery!

I'd look seriously at this machine, if I had not built the Worden. So, if it matters, you have my vote of approval!

John.

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