Electric vehicles

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

The latest from the Gov to ban the sales of petrol & diesel cars from 2030.

No mention of steam, maybe a steam engine would make more dam sense than an electric put put. Fella lives on 12th floor of a block of flats 48 flats in total. At least 1 car per house & some with 2. Now that is going to be one long extension lead.

Have they really thought this through. I can understand Hybrid but pure electric. ??????.

Steve.

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

Are they joking

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

May not be many options left for generating any steam, coal is out, green wood is out, expect dried wood will be out by then so you would need some other bio fuel or maybe an electric heater

Also possible that by then public or communal charging points will be able to recognise the car they are plugged into and charge the owners account.

Another 10years worth of battery development will make the current Telsa's performance and range look rubbish.

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

They are not joking. Get used to it. Human disregard for the environment must be alleviated.

What has 2030 got to do with anything other than sales of new cars with only petrol or diesel propulusion? Liquid fuelled vehicles will continue for many years afterwards – either fully ICE or hybrid.. It won’t affect second hand car sales of liquid fuelled vehicles until the supplies run out or other measures are put in place.

How many on the 12th floor of a block of flats has a car that needs charging more than a couple of times a week?

Many parking spaces (the car will need one, won’t it?) will be fitted with charging facilities. How many cars need to be taken to a filling station these days? Employers have ten years to install charging points at work?

Stop exaggerating and start thinking positively, is my advice. And don’t start quoting range. It’s virtually a non-issue even now.

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

Posted by not done it yet on 18/11/2020 19:09:57:

They are not joking. Get used to it. Human disregard for the environment must be alleviated.

What has 2030 got to do with anything other than sales of new cars with only petrol or diesel propulusion? Liquid fuelled vehicles will continue for many years afterwards – either fully ICE or hybrid.. It won’t affect second hand car sales of liquid fuelled vehicles until the supplies run out or other measures are put in place.

How many on the 12th floor of a block of flats has a car that needs charging more than a couple of times a week?

Many parking spaces (the car will need one, won’t it?) will be fitted with charging facilities. How many cars need to be taken to a filling station these days? Employers have ten years to install charging points at work?

Stop exaggerating and start thinking positively, is my advice. And don’t start quoting range. It’s virtually a non-issue even now.

You are at least predictable.

Thanks for the insult.

Steve.

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

Perhaps Rolls Royce will get their pocket nuclear power stations small enough for a vehicle

Mike

[Tony Pratt 1Participant @tonypratt1]

I'm sure it will happen and at great cost to the consumer i.e. us. Some guy was on the radio this morning saying how cheap his electric car is to run at the moment you can bet once we all have one the recharge cost will be taxed at the same scale as fossil fuels

Tony

[Steve WithnellParticipant @stevewithnell34426]

Yesss Electrical near us have a free recharging point…mind you the electrician I last used on a job went to Yesss because they did free pies on a Friday

Steve

[Phil WhitleyParticipant @philwhitley94135]

Posted by JasonB on 18/11/2020 18:45:03:

May not be many options left for generating any steam, coal is out, green wood is out, expect dried wood will be out by then so you would need some other bio fuel or maybe an electric heater

Also possible that by then public or communal charging points will be able to recognise the car they are plugged into and charge the owners account.

Another 10years worth of battery development will make the current Telsa's performance and range look rubbish.

Unfortunately battery development proceeds at a snails pace and much research and cash is needed to produce even tiny increases in capacity and range. The equation is simple and stark, Petrol produce 46.4 megajoules per Kilogram, the best rechargeable lithium ion EV batteries at the moment produce 0.84 megajoules per kilogram. That is a huge gulf to cross! Has anyone considered what would happen if we create a world with too little CO2, think on that a while!

[Tim HammondParticipant @timhammond72264]

I have owned a Nissan LEAF for just over 12 months now, so I think I'm qualified to add my two pennorth to the discussion. The car was first registered in June 2014 and to date has covered 21 000 miles. The traction battery is down to 85% state of health due to normal degradation and charged to 100% will give a range of about 80 miles on a balmy summer's day, just pootling along A-roads. However, if it's winter and it's cold and sheeting rain, then in those circumstances I'd be lucky to get just 50 miles or so. For a start, no battery is as efficient at low temperatures as it is in summer temperatures, then I need headlights, screenwipers, heater/demister to see where I'm going and to stay comfortably warm. Also more energy is required to drive the tyres through water on the road than on a dry road. If I venture onto a motorway and cruise at 70 mile/hr or so, then the level of charge will drop like a stone. This is the experience of most EV drivers, so range IS an issue. OK, my battery only holds 24kWh, and more modern vehicles have much bigger batteries but the same rules apply. Offhand I can't think of any internal combustion engine vehicle where the range is almost halved in inclement weather. And speak not of charging away from home – it's a lottery. Some chargers are broken and haven't been repaired, and if you do find one it's usually tucked behind the back of a service station. Will the plug fit the car? CCS or ChaDeMo? Will the charger accept a contactless card for payment, or does it need a downloaded app? Will the app. respond in an area where the mobile signal is poor? and so on and so on. We still have some way to go yet.

Edited By Tim Hammond on 18/11/2020 19:42:09

[Paul KempParticipant @paulkemp46892]

As with any other industry electrification of transport is full of smoke and mirrors and misinformation / misconceptions. I have been involved with a maritime project for the last 12 months and while the technology (in principle) is there the practically doesn't quite match. As stated above the energy density of batteries is a way off diesel (as is hydrogen). Only recently a research paper has come to me with a like for like comparison diesel / battery vessel (same hull, same power) and has recommendations electric is the way to go. Unfortunately Archemedes has been ignored and the weight of batteries specified will result in a submarine. To match the asset availability of a diesel vessel in a hybrid application the battery life due to the rate of discharge / charge and cycles of, gives a life of less than 3 years, cost of battery £0.5m. Cost to build over a conventional vessel over £2m more.

So yes, greener is possible but duty cycles compared to conventional ICE are reduced fairly significantly and costs increased very significantly. Battery chemistry and technology has advanced some in the last ten years but if it continues at the same rate for the next ten the picture will not be a lot different but hopefully costs may reduce, whether battery production and recycling can be cleaned up is a different discussion though.

What appears to be missing from the street level sales pitch at present is expectations in terms of travel costs and potentially time are going to have to reduce. Similar in heavy freight to move 40t by road with an electric truck compared to a diesel will take between 1/3 and 1/2 longer allowing for charges, so if it is time sensitive like a perishable supermarket delivery tractor units will have to be swapped to cover a significant distance, so you would need 2 tractor units and they are going to be more expensive.

So it is possible but it's not possible to do what is done now for the same cost. Lifestyle and price expectations need to be modified as someone, somewhere has to pay (even if it's subsidised by government).

Paul.

[Chris Evans 6Participant @chrisevans6]

It may end up a bit like the old stagecoaches changing horses every 10 miles or so….

[DMBParticipant @dmb]

No its not 10 yrs hence;little more than 9. Remember, 1/1/21 is getting close!

Frightening whats going to happen as others written above, no where near enough public charging points. Range and weather conditions no good for sparkboxes. Imagine, me on South coast going for holiday in North Wales to get in some more trips on Welsh Highland Rly. Last time, my petrol jamjar took me there in a day and back on another day. I'm all for new technology IF it's any good but what if I'm forced to have a sparkbox? 3 days each way + a couple of night stop overs? On yer bike MPs! Lots of other impracticalities as listed above, still not sorted. Think also, 1/2 Brighton appears to work in Worthing and district and 1/2 those in that area appear to work in Brighton, judging by the traffic in "normal" times. By the time that you get home, its difficult to find a parking place in the many terraced streets with many homes having perhaps 2 or 3 cars and a campervan and all the huge business vans How do you also fit in charging points for all? MPs dont seem to live in the real world and only dream up 1/2 baked ideas at their "palace" of "work."

[martin perman 1Participant @martinperman1]

I was thinking about an electric vehicle to replace my diesel but after reading the above a new diesel should see my wife and I out and give our daughter a low mileage vehicle for her to use.

Martin P

[Nigel BennettParticipant @nigelbennett69913]

What are we going to use to generate the massive increase in electricity required and what will they use to distribute it all around the country? Does the National Grid really have the capacity? Where is all the expensive minerals going to come from for the batteries and high tech motors in the vehicles? What is the carbon footprint going to be making it all?

[Alan Waddington 2Participant @alanwaddington2]

No need to worry about charging points in flats, terraced streets etc, once they introduce charge per mile motoring, only the well heeled will be able to afford to run a car anyway.

[Roderick JenkinsParticipant @roderickjenkins93242]

I think some of the infrastructure issues have been recognised because plug-in hybrids have had a stay of execution until 2035.

**LINK**

Rod

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Posted by Tim Hammond on 18/11/2020 19:41:34:

I have owned a Nissan LEAF………………….has covered 21 000 miles.

Only slightly more than my annual milage. However in the last month I have only done 10 miles part of which has been keeping the battery charged (to save getting the 150ft cable out). If I have to go back to commuting I could retire….except I need to work another year to afford the new car in 2029 and another 5 years to pay the taxes that are coming on my devalued pension.

I had a leaflet from my electric company for a charge point installation based on a town house so minimal distance to kerb needing maybe £50 of parts and half a day's labour priced at £350 if I recall.

None of the greenies and politicians want to address the real issue – too many people. We need punitive penalties on people with more than two children and rewards for those with fewer.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

From another forum I know quite a few people who are already very happy with their electric cars.

I think the biggest misconception above is that change is slow, 300 mile cars are a fact of life already.

Grid capacity is a non-issue. Cars charge mostly at night and actually bring a benefit because they use off-peak capacity.

I see three challenges:

1 – Infrastructure yes we will have to solve the charging conundrum, but this is basically about making charge points available where cars are parked, not about getting electricity from floor 24 to street level…

2 – Taxes the loss of revenue on fossil fuels is going to create tensions

3 – inequalities, if you can only afford an old banger how do you cope when fossil fuel prices are rocketing AND you have to pay road charges. There is s serious risk that the changeover period could effectively make driving unaffordable for people who presently get by with a tired diesel.

I certainly don't see performance or range being a problem long term. I also see other battery technologies coming on stream and maybe quick-swap standard packs so you can do a changeover at a service station as quickly as you could fill with petrol.

But don't get too excited, someone pointed out that under the new regime it's 20-25 years before someone with my buying habits will end up with an electric car…

[martin perman 1Participant @martinperman1]

I'm curious about one thing, what happens to us that live in the sticks and wouldnt know what a bus was if one passed us.

Martin P

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

When all this electric car business kicked off I jokingly said what we need is catenary over the motorway. I should have patented it, see Siemens

Seriously, we do need a charging infrastructure, and if it were arranged that any electric car could charge from any charge point it would make life a lot easier. Unfortunately we have politicians involved so don't hold your breath

[Martin Rock-EvansParticipant @martinrock-evans77799]

Not just overhead wires, but wireless car charging road trials as well: **LINK**

I have no idea if either of these ideas will go anywhere, but neither did we really know how the motor car with IC engines would take off when they were first introduced. Less than a decade after the first few IC motor cars and the world had changed. The point is that although electric cars and the national infrastructure have limitations now, things will change. We just don't know what the answers will be, so lets be part of the solution trying to find the answers.

[RRMBKParticipant @rrmbk]

Whilst I am fully in favour of electric cars as they make sense on health grounds and the savings to the NHS from exhaust pollution health illness alone, they are a long way from being anywhere near practical for use in hilly rural Wales, Border counties or Scotland. But the issue here is nothing more than government sound bites ( bytes?)

If they were serious about cutting fuel usage AND emissions they would be targeting commercial vehicles. One 38 ton wagon emits the same pollution as 5 or 6 cars and uses 5 -6 times more fossil fuel . A sensible rail freight infrastructure that is not overloaded with profit hungry companies running passenger carriages and preventing slower freight trains from baulking their timetables; is vital. And that does not mean hs2 which is not intended for freight at all as far as I understand.

Until a government has the B***s to tackle the likes of supermarkets and fashion / homeware / furniture retailers and insist that they cannot have planning for a new store unless it is within25/ 30 miles of a rail fed distribution centre; with the exception of these very rural areas; then we will still have huge diesel burning HGV's trundling thousands of unnecessary miles daily. On that basis, tinkering around with banning private cars is a complete waste of time.

The huge advantage for a government though is that private individuals don't have the massive political support lobby of the road hauliers and supermarkets so as individuals, we are very simple, quiet and submissive easy pickings.

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

What about aircraft. While seated awaiting take off from Mauritius some years ago i asked one of the stewards what the delay was. He said we need another 25 ton of fuel. I could not believe how much fuel an aircraft uses on a single long haul flight.

Steve.

[RRMBKParticipant @rrmbk]

Fully in agreement re aircraft again because of pollution as much as the fuel quantity, but that is an immense international problem. Lets at least start with bites that we can chew and that will have a direct effect on us here. If we could make this happen in the UK and reduce our HGV journeys by say 70 – 80% which would be achievable by better rail infrastructure and improved stock delivery lines, storage and warehousing, at least the rest of the world may take some notice. But as I say, as long as you have got big business and its hangars on lining their pockets with the profits, nothing will happen. You only need to look at the current PPE scandal to see where the money goes! Planning again should not allow any supermarket or retail outlet to be built without ensuring say a weeks storage of full stock on the premises, and put in planning restrictions about the number of delivery vehicles allowed in and out daily/ weekly.

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