Decent vernier height gauges ?

[jonathan heppelParticipant @jonathanheppel43280]

Why challenge a true statement?

Also, vernier has become vernacular of very vague veracity for various diverse devices

Edited By jonathan heppel on 15/11/2013 14:06:13

[jason udallParticipant @jasonudall57142]

Funny thing..
some of my micrometer have vernier scales..

One sextant has micrometer with vernier and the other just a vernier

.and only one ( unused mostly ) caliper .

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by jonathan heppel on 15/11/2013 13:54:12:

Why challenge a true statement?

I thought that would be obvious from what I wrote later:

Whilst it is true that the Vernier scale is an Analogue device … the very process of reading it involves a subconcious act of AtoD conversion, and our resulting interpretation is Digital.

MichaelG.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by jonathan heppel on 15/11/2013 13:54:12:

Also, vernier has become vernacular of very vague veracity for various diverse devices

.

Very true, Jonathan

… But let's not encourage such abuse of the man's name.

MichaelG.

[WALLACEParticipant @wallace]

I think the point I was trying to raise was I consider a ‘height guage’ to be a precision instrument that will hopefully last a life time and warrant the initial investment.

I’ve had mine now for about 15 years, treat it with respect and trust that it will see me out – which hopefully is over 30 years away.

I honestly don’t think I would trust an electronic guage to last that long with the issues of lead free solder, battery availability etc. Happy to be proved wrong but with a true vernier there’s no chance of it failing whatsoever.

I can see the convenience of an electronic gauge but then consider marking out to be a carefull and measured (!) process and one I wouldn’t rush.

I would also be slightly wary about a second hand one as it may have been bounced ! I imagine they’re quite easily knocked off the bench…

W

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Reasonably prices Chesterman 12" one on Homeworkshop I see, get it while you can.

J

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by WALLACE on 15/11/2013 15:34:20:

I think the point I was trying to raise was I consider a 'height guage' to be a precision instrument that will hopefully last a life time and warrant the initial investment.

Happy to be proved wrong but with a true vernier there's no chance of it failing whatsoever.

.

Absolutey the right attitude Wallace !!

Unfortunately, your eyesight will probably deteriorate before the instrument. … which, I think, is the main reason why people like the digital readout.

MichaelG.

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

The onset of winter cold has sent all my digital calipers wobbly Happens every year – fresh batteries should cure!

Grahams 'micrometer' design could be modified to include a rotary encoder (think the sort fitted to some mini-lathe cross and top slide handles), making a digital height gauge within the scope of home construction, but in that case why not modify a digital caliper?

Neil

[Halton TankParticipant @haltontank]

I own two vernier height gauges, an unamed 10" harden statinless steel which I bought at a second hand stand at the Model Engineer show some 25 years for which I paid £90. A few years later when the factory that I was working at was closing down I bought a 24" Benson for which I paid a princely som of £12. I do have and use digital calipers and the problem that I found is that they don't tend to like the climatic conditions in my workshop where they frozen in winter and cooked in the summer.

One should note, that though you may have pressed the 'OFF' button the caliper has not really switched off but gone into sleep or battery save mode. The typical temperature operating range for these devices is 0 deg C to +40 deg C. I have lost a couple of digital calipers that did not survive the winters, so that now I either remove the battery when I leave the workshop or generally I keep the calipers in the house and take them to workshop as and when I need them.

As my eyesight is starting to go to pot I, reading verniers I now have to use a magnifying glass, whereas with digital I no problems. My biggest bug bear with the cheaper digital calipers is that they will not remember the last reading when they switch off, i.e when you on again the reading is zero irrespective of setting of the jaws of the caliper (and in metric and not imperial that I normally use).

Regards

Luigi

[ronan walshParticipant @ronanwalsh98054]

I don't want a digital height gauge. My reason being that, my experience of cheap digital equipment has been negative. The aldi/lidl calipers and a few other bits i have bought over the years have all perished because of cold or getting coolant or oil or something else on them , that sends the display crazy, usually at the time you need them most. Seeing as engineers all the way from Henry Maudsley and his governor micrometer ,to really only the past couple of decades have managed to scrape by with non-digital metrology equipment, i think i'll be fine with a good quality vernier version.

P.s. I am not completely anti-digital, the good quality (read expensive) stuff is good i know, i have a mitutoyo calipers that are excellent, but i do not want to spend mitutoyo money on a height gauge.

[Bill PudneyParticipant @billpudney37759]

Posted by Brian Warwick on 15/11/2013 09:47:07:

Posted by Bill Pudney on 15/11/2013 08:55:53

I'm not saying that Mitutoyo do not make top quality gear, because they clearly do. However I wouldn't count on the "whats good enough…." routine too much. The likelihood is that RR prepared a list of the equipment required, along with the standards required and sent it to 3 or 4 suppliers. Then they bought the cheapest package.

cheers

Bill

 

chances are you are wrong in implying RR buy on price while I am certain they are careful with their money the SPECIFICATION will state what is fit for purpose and Accuracy and Reliability will be key factors

Isn't that what I said? Except that you misunderstood what I said, I think. RR would have prepared a list with associated standards, (accuracy, reliability, support, training required etc etc) then sent that to 3 or 4,or more, suppliers. Then having laid out the requirement, check all the responses for compliance with the requirement. Then buy the cheapest of the responses. I know that RR are generally held up as the Gold Standard for all things Engineering, but I doubt if they have an equipment purchasing system that's markedly different to anywhere else in the World.

cheers

Bill

Edited By Bill Pudney on 16/11/2013 01:51:19

[WALLACEParticipant @wallace]

I’m afraid you’re right Michael – I already have to use an eye loop to set it !

There’s always the option of attaching an electronic guage to a vernier on I suppose to get the best of both worlds – someone did this years ago in MEW…

W.

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

Regardless of choice of Height Vernier Chronos are offering a discount at the moment, why not use it?

No connection with Chronos apart from an occasional customer.

Clive

[jonathan heppelParticipant @jonathanheppel43280]

Just want to say that I am in no way against digital devices, and that there is some really quite good kit coming from a few Chinese manufacturers, though by no means all. If I gave the opposite impression, it was because I was defending my belief that ultimately electronics cannot be expected to have the same longevity as more traditional kit. I also championed their ease and speed of use in an earlier post.

I can't easily see a vernier, so I wouldn't have a height gauge, but on the rare occasion I want to measure anything over 12", I love to dig out my 25 quid Etalon 21* verniers and jeweller's loupe.

Verniers tend to be overlooked, and as a result there are some fabulous bargains to be had. You have to spend a great deal of money for similar but more modern quality.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Those with an interest in Verniers per se might like this:

My "Travelling Vernier Microscope" can be configured horizontally or vertically … and, with the appropriate choice of Object Glass can measure close-up, or across the room.

At great distance, the resolution is [obviously] limited by the optics; but the Vernier scale reads to 0.01mm

… although it must be said; it's not particularly easy to read !!

.

.

I have put more pictures in an Album called TVM.

MichaelG.

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

Not so! Height gauge extremely useful to measure height of top of workpiece above cnc mill table!

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

Hi Michael,

Would you read that as 11.75 or 11.76? Perhaps using a digital microscope to read the scale would help…

Neil

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Stub Mandrel on 16/11/2013 15:40:06:

Hi Michael,

Would you read that as 11.75 or 11.76?

.

Neil,

The short answer is … NO

I said it wasn't particularly easy

I'm sending you an eMail.

MichaelG.

[DustyParticipant @dusty]

I was trained as a template maker. These templates were generally for the manufacture of engine beams for aircraft engines and the like, this was in the days before C.N.C. and were used on a hydraulic copy mill.We marked out the template using vernier height gauges. They were then filed to line (favoured tool being a 14" half round bastard file) we then changed to smaller say 8" 2nd cut or fine file for the last couple of thou's, the important dimensions were allways taken to a measured size. The point being, as has been stated before don't rely on the line for accuracy.Having said that few amongst us could file to that sort of accuracy, I know I could not these days.

[roy entwistleParticipant @royentwistle24699]

Gentlemen ( and ladies ) It would appear that the use of the file is becoming a lost art As an apprentice in the early 50's I spent the second six months using file and scrapers The first six months brewing up running errands

and getting to know the factory

Looking back happy days

Roy

[ronan walshParticipant @ronanwalsh98054]

Posted by roy entwistle on 17/11/2013 12:40:46:

Gentlemen ( and ladies ) It would appear that the use of the file is becoming a lost art As an apprentice in the early 50's I spent the second six months using file and scrapers The first six months brewing up running errands

and getting to know the factory

Looking back happy days

Roy

Hello Roy

When i served my time as a fitter/turner we had to spend 6 months away from the job in the first year at a training centre, a huge part of the work load was bench fitting. This comprised of mainly getting two pieces of metal and hacksawing and filing them to shape and getting them within tolerance, and getting them to fit together. One test piece was a piece of 6mm thick steel plate into which a square hole had to be cut and filed to a tolerance of +/- 0.02mm, when this was finished a second piece had to be cut and filed to fit the hole in the original workpiece. The work was closely inspected by the instructors for tolerances, squareness, fit and surface finish.

It was hard work at the time and remember going home knackered, but it really did teach you about how accurately you can work with the humble file and while i grumbled at the time i am glad i did it. The instructor in the other class was an aussie chap, he didn't bother teaching or testing bench fitting as in his opinion it was an unnecessary and outdated skill to have ! But he also reckoned using manual machine tools was out of date.

[richardandtracyParticipant @richardandtracy]

I missed out on the apprentice filing futility, however a colleague went through the process. He was told to make a cube & fit it through a hole and given a file & lump of steel. He put the file down, went to the mill & milled the cube, on the basis he hadn't been explicitly told to file it & no-one in their right minds would choose to do such a slow & inefficient process outside the apprentice room.

He passed his apprenticeship with flying colours.

Richard

[TrevorhParticipant @trevorh]

I went through the Filing for months on end and had the square block through the square hole exercise, we had to use the shaper on 1 face, file on the 2nd face, Mill on the 3rd face and a hand chisel on the 4th face then file all faces to fit, finishing off with a hand scraper and engineers blue, Bloody thing took for ever to make only to be tossed in the scrap bin when we had finished and passed the inspection….but it taught you all of the options in machining vs hand tools

But after that you could file to almost any given standard and produce good quality work

Even received my parchment paper indentures

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

> milled the cube, on the basis he hadn't been explicitly told to file it & no-one in their right minds would choose to do such a slow & inefficient process outside the apprentice room.

Sounds like a Kobayashi Maru solution

Neil

[ronan walshParticipant @ronanwalsh98054]

Posted by Trevorh on 18/11/2013 10:39:30:

but it taught you all of the options in machining vs hand tools

But after that you could file to almost any given standard and produce good quality work

Exactly Trevor, you really appreciated the mill or surface grinder or lathe or whatever and the accurate work they could do, and as a tradesman every skill you can get under your belt like bench fitting ot hand scraping is an asset , even if you only use them occassionally.

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