Colchester Master 2500 headstock noise

[ronan walshParticipant @ronanwalsh98054]

Has anyone on this forum ever gotten to the bottom of the cause of the nasty noises that occur in Colchester lathe headstocks ? Specifically the master 2500 ?

I was given a master about 6 or 7 years back for nothing out of my workplace, i'd never seen it running as it wasn't connected to power. Normally i wouldn't bother with a colchester but as it was free i took it. I have had the machine running only a short while, 2 or 3 years now, and the first thing i noticed was the amount of noise coming from the headstock. It runs very noisily (like a bag of chisels) when in forward gear but when running in reverse it is very quiet. I can deduce from this that the noise isn't a bearing or bearings worn out, but rather gear noise. I've had a look in the head a few times now and can't see anything obviously worn and there are no broken gear teeth. Someone mentioned it might be the spindle brake. Also i have found (after a lot of searching on the web) the link below where a german chap found the cause of the noise in his master. What do you think ?

http://ms-creativity-forum.forumprofi.de/sonstiges–f33/colchester-master-2500-getriebe-probleme-zu-laut-t93.html

Its in german, but my browser translates it automatically.

[ronan walshParticipant @ronanwalsh98054]

[Alan Waddington 2Participant @alanwaddington2]

Unfortunately the link stays in German on my Mac & ipad, a quick look at the pictures reveals fairly major headstock surgery.

If the spindle brake operates anything like my Student 1800 then I very much doubt that's the culprit. its a fairly crude brake block arrangement that jams into one of the V belt drive pulleys.

I've heard many stories of noisy Colchester head stocks, especially high mileage ones, can't say my Student is too obnoxious, however I don't think Colchester were ever noted for their quiet operation.

Might be useful if you could describe the noise in a bit more detail, is it a whine, a rumble a clattering sound etc

" a bag of chisels is a bit generic " 
 

IIRC the master headstock is pump lubricated rather than splash lubricated like my student, I wonder if it's possible the pump had packed up at sometime in its life and no one noticed for a while, resulting in high gear train wear ?

 

Edited By Alan Waddington 2 on 12/01/2015 20:27:19

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Alan,

For a translation … Try this

MichaelG.

[Alan Waddington 2Participant @alanwaddington2]

Thanks Michael

[ronan walshParticipant @ronanwalsh98054]

The noise is hard to describe Alan, but a clattering whine, i suppose is the best way to describe it. What the chap in the german website says is the shaft and gear behind/beneath the clutch shaft is unhardened, this shaft and gear takes the power from the clutch shaft and transmits it to the rest of the gearbox. When the shaft wears the relationship between gears is lost and slap and whine make themselves noisily known.

I know it will never be rolls royce quiet , but if this was the cause of the trouble i'd attempt to sort it out.

[Jens Eirik Skogstad 1Participant @jenseirikskogstad1]

I has used the Colchester Master 2500, there was noise due gear inside head stock is not helical gear who is silent under use. How to keep maintenance the bearings in head stock, see picture..

[Alan Waddington 2Participant @alanwaddington2]

Mhh Interesting reading Ronan……..couldn't quite work out if he had replaced the gears or just cleaned them up?

From what I can gather 600 group spares prices are eye watering to say the least, might be worth pricing them up

before formulating a plan of attack.

Wonder if that's why they chose not to harden them in the first place

[ronan walshParticipant @ronanwalsh98054]

Posted by Alan Waddington 2 on 12/01/2015 22:23:31:

Mhh Interesting reading Ronan……..couldn't quite work out if he had replaced the gears or just cleaned them up?

From what I can gather 600 group spares prices are eye watering to say the least, might be worth pricing them up

before formulating a plan of attack.

Wonder if that's why they chose not to harden them in the first place

 

I might email the guy in the german website and ask him what he did.

Colchester claimed they did harden the gears and the bed ! As to did someone run the machine without oil or not, its like buying a used car, you have no real way to know what any past owner got up to, sadly. I am not usually a fan of colchesters, but as i said i got the machine for nowt .

 

 

Edited By ronan walsh on 12/01/2015 22:48:38

[Nigel McBurney 1Participant @nigelmcburney1]

I bought my master 2500 at a government sale some years ago,and I did know that i was taking a chance in buying at auction, when I got it running ,it whined and was noisy in forward gears ,when in reverse it was relatively quiet,so I reversed the motor and used the reverse clutch to provide forward drive and it has run nicely ever since. The problem appears to be that the clutches and associated gearing and shaft run at well over twice motor speed to keep the diameter of the clutch down to a small small size to fit the available space and of course get noisy. Of course the reverse gears do not get much wear ,I have used it a lot and have had no problems, when the lathe is started the oil sight glass must be checked to ensure the pump is working and the oil tank level checked occasionally, the pump seals have failed once and dumped some oil. It is a good lathe,probably the best of the 6.5 inch and below Colchesters, I also have very good triumph again ex wd but has not seen much use, When I used the master clutch lever with 'up' for forward the Triumph s lever was still the normal clutch lever down for forward so to avoid confusion , I made a new clutch linkage for the master so the lever went down for forward same as the triumph.

[ronan walshParticipant @ronanwalsh98054]

So is it just general gearbox wear or is there any specific gears that wear ? I have asked this question on the professional engineering forums and never got a concrete answer, apart from people telling me how soft and crap colchesters were, except for a few models.

[Jens Eirik Skogstad 1Participant @jenseirikskogstad1]

Posted by ronan walsh on 12/01/2015 23:21:59:

So is it just general gearbox wear or is there any specific gears that wear ? I have asked this question on the professional engineering forums and never got a concrete answer, apart from people telling me how soft and crap colchesters were, except for a few models.

No, do not listen from the people who not had operated the Colchester lathe. The Colchester Master 2500 lathe is not a crap. It is common noise from head stock due the gearbox has spur gear who is noisy. Be sure there is enough oil inside the head stock to keep long life time. Oil Shell Vitrea 220 use for spur gear in gearbox.

[ronan walshParticipant @ronanwalsh98054]

Hmmm, sorry Jens but my opinion of colchesters has always been low due to the amount of bed wear i have seen on many of them (induction hardened bedways my foot) and the noisy headstocks, happily the bed on my lathe isn't worn , or worn badly, but the headstock does indeed sound like a mechanical disaster.

I would never buy a colchester , but as i say i was given this one free and so went with it. If i could reduce the amount of din coming from the headstock i would keep the machine for a few years.

Edited By ronan walsh on 12/01/2015 23:43:08

[Jens Eirik Skogstad 1Participant @jenseirikskogstad1]

With other word abused lathe will not last. There is still use the Colchester Master 2500 in some industry and school here in Norway and works well as it will be. I has the Sieg C6 with hardened bed and the spindle is driven by belt, also i am very satisfied. Select Sieg or similar brand of lathe who has belt instead gear if you want a "silent" work.

[ronan walshParticipant @ronanwalsh98054]

I don't expect a silent lathe Jens , but this colchester makes twice the noise of the massive harrison we have at work, surely this can't be correct ? Any , or most mechanical devices make some noise, but this is excessive. Also if the lathe was over worked or abused the bed would be worn too, but it doesn't appear to be.

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

If I had to own a Colchester to use in anger I'd try to find one of the earlier round heads.

They are far better made and in a lot of ways designed better. The square head apron is a disaster waiting to happen and when it does expect to pay between £1500 and £2000 for the spare for the apron alone.

I'm told there are quiet head stocks on square heads but to be honest I have never seen one. You can't blame small clutches or straight cut gears as many lathes have similar, my TOS is one and believe me this get some serious work.

I have had it 18 years from new and given it works say 4 hours per day to make up for the time I'm on other machines this is serious work, it's 10 lifetimes for a home shop guy and it's still deadly accurate.

Also induction hardened bed ways are a joke. Everybody relates the hardening to what you get on vise jaws and tools. Forget it, by the virtue of being cast iron and not steel the most you will get is 23 -24 Rockwell which is what soft steel is to start with.

If they get harder than that you are faced with warping, cracking or even snapping off. So yes it is harder than standard cast iron but not that much. Have you noticed than no one mentions what Rockwell it is ? only that is is induction hardened.

Myfords even stopped it because they had that much trouble with it. Raglan's went the correct way with having detachable steel shears hardened and ground to about 55 Rockwell but all that does is wear the underside of the saddle which is just plain cast iron.

[Ian ParkinParticipant @ianparkin39383]

John

What happens to the square head apron? is that the same as a mk1.5 round head apron?

And my student which I assumed was in original paintwork doesnt have an induction hardened beds sticker on it

But a file glides off the bed … doesnt cut at all .. should I be able to if its been hardened? if as you say its only like soft steel anyway

And just another thing my student doesnt have a serial number on the bed does that mean its been reground? would that remove the serial number which wasn't on a bed way anyway (it between the ways)

Ian

[Ian ParkinParticipant @ianparkin39383]

Anyone any ideas about my bed? is it hard or not?

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

I took over a Colchester Lathe one time and it was noisy, the machine was 3 Ph and I started looking and found that the oil pump was running backwards. I reversed a couple of wires and the noise went away. I wonder if this would apply on the Colchester here?

Clive

[Jens Eirik Skogstad 1Participant @jenseirikskogstad1]

Posted by Ian Parkin on 14/01/2015 18:58:29:

Anyone any ideas about my bed? is it hard or not?

Not so very important about the bed is hardened or soft. Good maintenance and periodical lubricated bed, the lathe will last very long.

I saw the big german lathe with 15 hp motor from second world war who is installed in the workshop for military as a part of maintenance of military equipment. This workshop was a torpedo factory in Trondheim, Norway since we had a german U-boat base in Trondheim. The lathe is still in use and still a precision lathe.

[ronan walshParticipant @ronanwalsh98054]

Posted by Clive Hartland on 14/01/2015 20:41:10:

I took over a Colchester Lathe one time and it was noisy, the machine was 3 Ph and I started looking and found that the oil pump was running backwards. I reversed a couple of wires and the noise went away. I wonder if this would apply on the Colchester here?

Clive

I have heard Clive that if there are dual belts coming from the main drive motor into the headstock input shaft, if one is slightly longer than the other, that this can lead to noise. I might try by removing one belt to see if there is any reduction in noise. But i doubt it, the noise sounds like gear slap to me.

[Jens Eirik Skogstad 1Participant @jenseirikskogstad1]

Posted by Clive Hartland on 14/01/2015 20:41:10:

I took over a Colchester Lathe one time and it was noisy, the machine was 3 Ph and I started looking and found that the oil pump was running backwards. I reversed a couple of wires and the noise went away. I wonder if this would apply on the Colchester here?

Clive

Not in the Colchester Master 2500: The lubrication of the "Master 2500" headstock reflected the harder work the lathe was intended to undertake (in comparison with the 1800) and was taken care of by an impellor-type pump mounted on a oil tank fitted inside the headstock-end plinth and driven from an extension to the main-motor spindle; from the tank the oil was taken to a "distributor block" fastened beneath the headstock's top cover and from there by pipes to the required locations. A flow-indicator sight-glass was fitted to the front headstock face to allow the operator to check that oil was flowing correctly.

[Andy taylor 2Participant @andytaylor2]

Posted by Jens Eirik Skogstad on 14/01/2015 23:15:37:

Posted by Clive Hartland on 14/01/2015 20:41:10:

I took over a Colchester Lathe one time and it was noisy, the machine was 3 Ph and I started looking and found that the oil pump was running backwards. I reversed a couple of wires and the noise went away. I wonder if this would apply on the Colchester here?

Clive

Not in the Colchester Master 2500: The lubrication of the "Master 2500" headstock reflected the harder work the lathe was intended to undertake (in comparison with the 1800) and was taken care of by an impellor-type pump mounted on a oil tank fitted inside the headstock-end plinth and driven from an extension to the main-motor spindle; from the tank the oil was taken to a "distributor block" fastened beneath the headstock's top cover and from there by pipes to the required locations. A flow-indicator sight-glass was fitted to the front headstock face to allow the operator to check that oil was flowing correctly.

why is it so difficult to find out the sizes of the sight glasses without taking them out! I would like to replace them at the same time but I know as soon as I take them out to measure I will need the lathe …lol

[KettrinboyParticipant @kettrinboy]

We had two Master 2500,s at our shop , one was low mileage and very quiet , the other had been used hard for a long time and was way noisier but soldiered on for all the time I was there(15 yrs).

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