Chinese Electric Cars

[Geoff TheasbyParticipant @geofftheasby]

Duncan, alcohol is a food! Ho Ho.

At the moment, CO2 is less of a problem than NOx or particulates A hydrogen economy also assumes no Nox from i/c engines, but this applies only if the H is burned in oxygen, not if burned in air. (Air being 80% nitrogen)

Geoff

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

So from all this I shall have to wait a long time until I can have a Hover Car!

Clive

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Just strap a few drones together Clive and you will soon be buzzing with your bees

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Sorry if I confused the issue about electric vehicles.

Hybrids were deliberately excluded from my comments, because the I C engine obviously extends the range. But this is because it is not a purely electric vehicle.

No doubt the Tesla does have a longer range than most purely electric cars. You get what you pay for; but it is not a mass market vehicle because of its price.

My comments are based on a lifetime spent with engines and vehicles, and so based more on practice than theory. (And in my youth, I did ride in pure electric vehicles; milk floats which never travelled further than a very few miles from their base, and were slow. There was no call for long range travel or high speed. They had a poor power/weight ratio because of the lead acid battery, and so carried less than their tare weight. But they were not intended as drag racers)

As yet, I see little prospect of a sub £20K pure electric car that can compete with my 12 year old petrol puddle jumper.

How many hybrids are sub £20K? Prices ARE falling, so watch this space.

And the battery weight will seriously reduce the payload of a commercial vehicle, (They are limited by legislation regarding gross vehicle weight and axle loading, as well as physical size. Payload vs cost is very important to the operator.)

I am not saying "Never", just "Not for some time yet". There is a lot more development needed, before hydrocarbon fuelled vehicles are made obsolete or extinct by pure electric powered ones.

Beware of climbing aboard the latest headline powered transport. It is good publicity to be supporting "green" technology, and high tech, even if, in reality, it is a long way off. Years ago, gas turbines were hailed as the future. The Rover gas turbine car , and the few gas turbine powered trucks, and Locomotives proved to be fairly short lived, once the disadvantages became apparent, not least of all fuel efficiency. Which was less dependant on close support fuel supplies in the Gulf war; the gas turbine Abrams or the diesel powered Challenger?

In the world of steam, the watertube boiler is excellent for steady state marine or static power generation use, but failed to cope with the rapidly varying loads of the locomotive. Horses for courses and all that

By all means suck it and see, (if you don't, new developments will never bear fruit) but Utopia may well be further away than we like to imagine!

Howard

[Bob Brown 1Participant @bobbrown1]

There is another problem with electric cars, like where is all this electricity going to come from never mind the stress they are likely to put on the current distribution network. Renewables are no good at night or when the wind speeds are to low or too high which is also unpredictable, do you stop people charging their EV at periods of peak demand?

Bob

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Posted by Geoff Theasby on 09/07/2017 13:40:53:

At the moment, CO2 is less of a problem than NOx or particulates

Possibly, at the moment. However I am more concerned for my grandchildren. If global warming continues at the predicted rate it will be a very serious problem for my grandchildren. We are already seeing significant effects.

Russell

[Geoff TheasbyParticipant @geofftheasby]

Yes, Russell, however I was never convinced that CO2 was a major problem. Methane, from cattle, from ourselves and melting permafrost, is more potent, as are several other common chemicals. Our grandchildren will be more concerned about the debts we are currently loading on to them, but that's another matter.

Geoff

[Andrew TinsleyParticipant @andrewtinsley63637]

Thank you Howard for a cogently argued case of "Yes it will happen, but not yet!" May I ask how many of you on the forum have pure electric cars or even a hybrid? I bet the answer is zero (or maybe even one or two?). If you are for electric cars then why don't you own one?

The answer is simple, they are damn expensive and have limited range and the provision of country wide charging points is still years away. Right now electric cars are a bad deal unless you only travel a few miles and can charge them at home.

SURE, electric cars will be the norm in 20 years time. That will be when battery technology has increased the energy density of the batteries by at least 8 to 10 times over current units AND the infrastructure is there to service the recharging.

So energy density needs to be seriously increased and the charge rates need to be much higher than present. That represents a good chunk of innovation and development time. With a little inside knowledge of the problems involved, I would estimate this state of affairs will not exist for between 5 and 10 years, maybe closer to 10.

With this in mind, my next car will be definitely IC powered. Hybrid is the best bet at present, in terms of electric powered cars, pure electric is a very expensive gimmick and does not work for most of car users.

HGVs are another problem much more complex than people realise. If I had to bet, I would think fuel cell systems offer the best "energy density" solutions for long distance haulage. They certainly won't be around for a good many years. Yes there are many fuel cell systems around and people have been developing them for a very long time. But none are yet up to powering something like an HGV at an economical rate. It is no good spouting that X or Y is fuel cell powered and hence it is OK for HGVs. Vehicles that use fuel cells have yet to show the necessary economy and longevity required. If they did then manufacturers would be using them now!

Nobody in their right mind wants to continue using IC power, just look up the thermodynamic efficiency of even the best diesel engine. The fact that IC still has 98% of the market in the UK must tell you something (Figures taken from my "quality newspaper", I don't think they are far off either!)

Right now "hype" is the driving force that makes ordinary people buy electric. Give it a few more years and cold economics will dictate a change to electric vehicles.

Andrew.

[Peter BellParticipant @peterbell11509]

Interesting thread with lots of speculation backwards and forwards in time. Certainly think there will be some sort of revolution towards electric propulsion in the future with a fuel source of goodness know what.

However I expect to have to make a decision soon. My 15 year old VW Passat tdi which I've owned for 11 years has now covered 210,000 miles, returning 58mpg over last 2800 miles and passed an mot recently.

Problem is elec ain't here yet at a reasonable price new and second hand is older technology and is it fixable?

Petrol isnt really very clean (and friends with 2L petrol average 35-45mpg) also I far prefer the feel of a diesel under my right foot—what do I replace the Passat with at this moment in time?

Peter

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Looks liek Neil may have wired this one up

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

"Two fire crews fought to extinguish the blaze, which hit 300 degrees Celsius"

Wow!

You could solder at that temperature, that's almost hot enough to melt pure lead!

Neil

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Peter Bell on 09/07/2017 19:39:47:

However I expect to have to make a decision soon. My 15 year old VW Passat tdi which I've owned for 11 years has now covered 210,000 miles, returning 58mpg over last 2800 miles and passed an mot recently.

I might make you an offer for it

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 10/07/2017 11:07:00:

"Two fire crews fought to extinguish the blaze, which hit 300 degrees Celsius"

Wow!

You could solder at that temperature, that's almost hot enough to melt pure lead!

Neil

Why would you think that is hot for a fire.? The ingition point for wood is 300°C

regards Martin

[Nick_GParticipant @nick_g]

.

People have mentioned Volvo and their pledge and they have also mentioned the problems HGV's will face with the technology.

Ain't Volvo a major player in the HGV manufacturing market.?

Nick

[MikeParticipant @mike89748]

I remember that, in the 1970s, Perkins in Peterborough had an experimental gas turbine lorry on the road. I often used to see it go past my office. It made a shrill, whistling noise. Could be fun with one running on natural gas, hydrogen or vegetable alcohol. They were also experimenting with a lorry-size Stirling engine that would run on anything that would burn, but the plan was abandoned. An engineer who was involved told me that it needed a lot of cobalt steel in its construction, and it wasn't economical to build.

Edited By Mike on 10/07/2017 17:35:49

[SamsarandaParticipant @samsaranda]

Very sceptical of the benefits of electric vehicles, particularly the high costs involved; have bad memories of when I spent a few months as a milkman, we had electric milk floats which when we returned to the depot every evening we had to plug in to recharge the huge lead acid batteries. One day half way round my round I noticed that the float was getting slower and slower, realisation dawned that I had forgotten to plug in and recharge after the previous day's outing. This required a grovelling phone call to the depot for a tow back to the depot, they duly despatched a transit van to assist. Those of us who had to request a tow were treated to perhaps the most horrendous journey home to the depot with the transit taking off as if in a formula one Grand Prix and the milk float being propelled at breakneck speed with the occupant clutching the steering wheel and fighting to keep the vehicle on the road. Milk floats are not known for good road holding, they were never intended to go faster than about 7 mph so doing 40 mph is truly frightening. If you have ever done that speed in a milk float you do not want to repeat the experience, the moral of the story is recharging is everything with an electric vehicle.

Dave

[Another JohnSParticipant @anotherjohns]

Posted by Russell Eberhardt on 09/07/2017 10:43:14:

Hmm… fuel cells are mentioned. Yes they promise quicker refuelling than battery operation but:

Myth; fuel cells are clean and emit only water. Where does the hydrogen come from? Water and it takes energy to separate the hydrogen from the oxygen. Where does that energy come from? Most of it from burning fossil fuels.

Agreed. Space Shuttle had a yuuuge hydrogen tank, hydrogen did NOT come from electrolysis, but from natural gas… It was more energy efficient than electrolysis, if I remember correctly. (looked at this a long time ago)

NASA used to tout the fact that all the exhaust you saw on launch was just "steam", or some such baloney – lots of hydrocarbons went into making that "steam".

😐

Edited By John Alexander Stewart on 10/07/2017 20:18:46

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

I wonder if any forum members think the 'tipping point' for electric vehicles is just around the corner.

Interesting fact : 42% of new cars in Norway are now pure electric. Not hybrids, plug ins or range extenders – but pure electric. OK, the UK is not Norway, but I reckon Norway is well past the 'tipping point' and the UK is just a long way behind on the curve. I would expect the government is watching developments….

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Martin Kyte on 10/07/2017 11:26:45:

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 10/07/2017 11:07:00:

"Two fire crews fought to extinguish the blaze, which hit 300 degrees Celsius"

Wow!

You could solder at that temperature, that's almost hot enough to melt pure lead!

Neil

Why would you think that is hot for a fire.? The ingition point for wood is 300°C

regards Martin

I was being ironic…

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

Oh.

It's a bit hot for ironing though.

;0)

Martin

[KWILParticipant @kwil]

Point of interest re Norway. Excessive amounts of Hydro power available! Mainly town use of cars with longer distances by Train. Look at the maps to see why.

[Bob RodgersonParticipant @bobrodgerson97362]

Electric Cars and road vehicles are the future but as many here have said, where is all the power going to come from to charge them all. The government has given the go ahead for new nuclear power generating plant to provide energy for part of our future energy needs at massive cost to the nation.

I Can't help think that the government would be better off providing all households in the UK with solar panels free of charge and investing money into accumulator research so that electricity can be stored in large amounts.

[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

Posted by Nick_G on 10/07/2017 11:28:25:

Ain't Volvo a major player in the HGV manufacturing market.?

Nick

Different company for many years now. Still called Volvo Group Trucks but now own Renault, Mack and UD – ie what used to be Nissan's heavy truck division. Nissan's light trucks are still part of the Nissan / Renault car group.

Volvo cars have been owned by Gelly (China) since 2010. They seem to be doing well.

Saab cars went bust after GM sold them to Dutch Spyker and the remaining Swedish operation seems to be planning an electric vehicle in conjunction with a Chinese company (SOP 2020?), although they won't be able to call them Saabs. Scania (the truck part of Saab-Scania) is doing very well it seems.

On a similar note, Mitsubishi Fuso (formerly Mitsubishi Commercial Vehicles) got into serious trouble after they were caught falsifying OBD data for their engines (echos of VW here!). IIRC, they were subsequently 85% bought by Mercedes, so the Fuso vehicles you see on the roads are now made by a Mercedes-owned company.

It's swings and roundabouts!

I was in Japan talking to Mitsubishi Fuso about hybrid and electric commercial vehicle roadmaps back in 2010 when I worked for Ricardo. All the major companies have plans for this technology although obviously it's not a simple journey from where we are today. The idea of a 40 tonne battery electric HGV doesn't work too well if it only has a payload of 10 tonnes. But a tractor unit for urban routes (quiet and emission-free) makes sense for that part of the route.

Murray

[Bob Brown 1Participant @bobbrown1]

Posted by not done it yet on 14/08/2017 10:28:30:

I wonder if any forum members think the 'tipping point' for electric vehicles is just around the corner.

Interesting fact : 42% of new cars in Norway are now pure electric. Not hybrids, plug ins or range extenders – but pure electric. OK, the UK is not Norway, but I reckon Norway is well past the 'tipping point' and the UK is just a long way behind on the curve. I would expect the government is watching developments….

Norway has/had adopted a system where new electric cars come with no purchase tax or VAT which is probably something that can be done in Norway as they have a surplus in fossil fuels they sell and most of their power is generated by Hydro and a small population. How long that situation is sustainable is a question but I do not think you could take the Norway model and replicate it here in the UK as the loss to the revenue stream would need to be made up else where. It is not all rosy in Norway as people are using their EV rather than public transport causing congestion and ferries are suffering a loss of revenue as EV's are free.

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

This is election year in NZ, the current govt is promising that one third of govt cars will be electric by 2021, the Christchurch City Council says that's too long, they will anounce when the city will go electric in a couple of weeks.

Ian S C

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