Beginners lathe

[Brian NormanParticipant @briannorman50523]

Hi all, I would like to get some advice about buying a lathe. I am retired, living in Spain and have been making models of one sort or another for most of my life. Although I have been interested in model engineering I have not been able to take this hobby up until now.

There are two lathes that I am interested in, the Sieg C0 and the TaigPeatol. I have not found any other similar that are new and within the same budget.

The reasons are as follows: my max budget for the lathe only is £300 appx, I cannot justify spending more, if the tailstock and motor are added to the Taig they both come in slightly less then this figure. The weight, both are very portable, even if I could increase my budget for a bigger lathe there is no way I could consider manhandling 40kgs plus, especially from UK. It would have to be new, I do not have the knowledge to check out a second hand one.

I know I would be restricted with what I could do on these small lathes but having searced the web sites I am amazed what some people have achieved. I am leaning towards the Taig at the moment because the capacity is a little bigger plus the ability to raise the ctr height, there appears to be a lot more accesories available and there is a lot more info on the web on its use.

I look forward to your coments.

[Brian NormanParticipant @briannorman50523]

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

___ ^^^ ___

[Brian NormanParticipant @briannorman50523]

Hi Michael, I don't understand your post!

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Brian Norman on 19/01/2017 08:54:11:

Hi Michael, I don't understand your post!

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Sorry, Brian … I was just 'bumping' your thread to the top of the list, before it got lost.

MichaelG.

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P.S. … useful pages, about the Taig/Peatol here: **LINK**

http://www.jeffree.co.uk/modelengineering.html

[Brian NormanParticipant @briannorman50523]

Thanks Michael, still a bit new to symbols used in posts!

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Before deciding on a lathe to buy you need to consider carefully what you intend to make with it. Perhaps you should tell us then you might get some good advice from this forum.

Personally of the two you mention I would go for the Seig as it looks more like a small version of a "proper" lathe but I have no experience of either.

Russell (25 km from the Spanish border, in France)

[richardandtracyParticipant @richardandtracy]

Of the two, I'd suggest the Seig.

I did consider a Taig/Peatol when I started researching lathes myself in 2002. I didn't get one. There are so many 'accessories' needed to make it usable that as a beginner I got lost. What was important, what could I do without, and what would be good to have? I didn't have enough knowledge at the time to know the answers to these questions. I was also concerned that I'd end up fitting the things wrong & not having enough knowledge to know if it was me or the lathe that was at fault.

The next thing you need to do is to think of what size work you want to do. The Seig is small. and suggests 125mm between centres. To avoid all sorts of gymnastics with the toolpost & re-setting it to machine stuff near the tailstock, you'll be looking at an easily worked length of 75mm. That is really very small. I mostly machine pens & don't think that's big enough, and pens are not very large! Think long & hard about the size of work you expect to do, and then try to save up for a machine with at least twice that capacity in distance between centres and 1.5x to 2x that capacity in diameter. That will mean you don't grow out of the machine too fast and it'll speed you up on the stuff you expect to do – no need for frequent re-setting of the tool to work at the tailstock etc..

Axial power feed is very important if you can get it, and screw cutting may save you a fortune on taps & dies – it's a trade-off on price there. I don't have a powered cross feed, and for the use I have, I don't really need it on my machine. However, you may want to do items with greater diameter than height regularly, so a cross feed would be good.

The more gizmos a lathe has, it means two things a) the more things a novice can get wrong, but also b) the more things a novice can do. To get the same quality of work from a basic machine is more difficult and needs more skill from the machinist. The best machinists can turn fantastic work from unbelievably basic machines (I saw a video once of a guy with a pole lathe and hand tools machining steel to 0.1mm accuracy. The novice can't do this.)

So, my advice on which lathe to choose from the two you have suggested is 'Neither', for the reasons specified. But if it absolutely has to be one of the two, then I'd suggest the Seig, because there'll be less chance of fitting bits wrong.

What did I choose in 2002? The Warco equivalent of the Clarke CL500M (20" between centres, 12" swing), which I have not grown out of despite doing a great deal bigger stuff on it than I originally expected when I first thought a Taig/Peatol would be sufficient.

Regards,

Richard.

[Brian NormanParticipant @briannorman50523]

I must admit that the Seig does look the part but I don't want that to sway me. I will be quite happy to make small stationary steam engines and any other small projects. Even with a bigger lathe I realise that making large locomotives or traction engines are out of my league.

Brian (near Huercal Overa in Almeria province)

[Brian NormanParticipant @briannorman50523]

Hi Richard, thank you for your reply, my last post was added before I saw it.

There are important things I have to consider before making my decision. I have to get the equipment from th UK, have been unable to find suppliers out here. Also the only help I will get is from people online like yourself, cannot find anyone in reasonable distant.

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

You might want to look at the Sieg C0 customer reviews on the Axminster Power Tool site, they are not very positive. As a starting lathe, buying something that needs a lot of fettling to get it in a reasonable state isn't a great idea. Versions from other vendors, Arc Eurotrade come to mind (see link here) may be better finished. The small Sieg machine tools with DC motors and electronic speed control also have a reputation for blowing their electronic controller up – this could be a problem when you start and take an incautious cut depth or something digs in.

At various times I've looked at getting a small lathe for odd jobs when the Myford is set up for something else and the Peatol looked quite good, but I was always a bit unimpressed by the C0 looking at it at exhibitions.

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

I had a Taig fron Peatol in the UK. First home lathe. I used it for making bits and bobs. Part of the reason for buying it was a pending change of job so couldn't use one at work any more.

I bought most of the bits that are available for it and used all of them. The tailstock isn't brilliant but does work. It was a very precise lathe initially but eventually the headstock distorted so it started turning several thou taper over say 4" or so. I've heard that even clock makers get this problem but probably not to the same degree. I did one job on mine repairing a part for a larger lathe with the riser block on that made the taper a lot worse. I don't think that a C0 would be capable of doing this particular job – not sufficient power at the rpm level I needed to use. Also I doubt if it is rigid enough. The Taig i had used a 1/4hp motor and belt drive. Some now come with a variable speed universal brushed motor that wouldn't offer the same power levels. Heavier work with the riser block on probably isn't a good idea anyway. It's intended to allow steam engine etc flywheels to be skimmed up.

One thing about them is a fact. Buy the kit for them and they can be used to make all sorts of things. They even mill rather well via the vertical slide. All of the parts are well made too.

As to the C0, the baby lathe some one called Brian in Australia is making stirling engines and others on one. An Opti model, not Sieg. It had some serious problems but that doesn't mean all are like that. Before he bought it he was probably warned that it's too small really for what he wants to do with it. He now wishes for something bigger. That hasn't taken long. Brian has done remarkable well with it but some one did some work on the lathe first. Not just fix the fault that if any one of many people on here would have spotted pretty quickly and sent it back.

My advice would be to forget both machines and buy a mini lathe. Lathes aren't naturally light weight machines and Chinese lathes are built at a cost not to be as good as a lathe the size of a baby lathe could be. Same's true of the mini lathe which is the next size up but there are a number of improvements not least an increase in centre distance plus screw cutting indicators on some. While you may not think you need the increase in centre distance you will when you drill holes in work. Brian managed to buy a set of stub drills which helps. He's in Australia and they are easy to find there. Even the 14" on some mini lathes is rather short really. 18" is a favoured minimum centre distance but probably a bit over the top for a lot of model engineering type work.

I had a look on ebay in spain out of curiosity. Plenty of UK and German lathe listings and some Spanish for Optimum. Prices look high to me probably as the Spanish company only has to compete with sellers from other countries. I haven't checked UK prices though.

If you do buy a mini lathe I would be inclined to suggest this one or similar from the same seller,

**LINK**

Mainly because it has a larger centre distance than some BUT also because it comes with a screw cutting indicator. In fact I think that the metric version comes with 2 gears for that which allow all of the usual metric pitches to be cut without having to stop and reverse the lathe. His website is called Amadeal. I've only ever bought tooling of them but no complaints about anything I have bought.

I wondered if their was a machinemart branch in spain. Google bought this up. Don't know if it will help

**LINK**

Probably not but maybe.

As to the 2 mentioned to be honest if it was for me I could think of good reasons for buying either of them but don't think that either is really suitable for the intended use.

John

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[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Brian,

Although they are probably out of your intended price range … have a look around the Sherline web-site:

**LINK**

Home

Loads of good information there; which might help you decide what features are important to you.

MichaelG.

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Here is a list of model railway sites all over Spain. If there is one near you someone there would be able to give you advice on buying machine tools in Spain.

If buying a new lathe it might be better to buy one in Spain for after sales service. For example this company sell a wide range of what look like Seig machines.**LINK**

Russell

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

I once spent some time finding out what Shereline's idea of accuracy in terms of alignment was. Not easy to find. I wasn't impressed.

The site Russell linked to offer the longer bed version of the mini lathe. Maybe there are also sellers in Spain who sell the lathes along with the accessories that are likely to be needed. Sometimes that way works out cheaper. The usual things that are needed are, 3 and 4 jaw chucks, drill chuck, fixed steady, turning tools and faceplates can be useful as can centres. People usually want a quick change toolpost as well eventually. Screw cutting needs a set of gears with these lathes. Often they always come with those.

I didn't have much trouble finding a selller in Spain either

**LINK**

One thing to add on weight it's often the shipping weight so don't assume the lathe must weigh 40kg. it wont be far off it though.

John

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[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Ajohnw on 19/01/2017 17:01:30:

I once spent some time finding out what Shereline's idea of accuracy in terms of alignment was. Not easy to find. I wasn't impressed.

.

John,

If it wasn't easy; perhaps you could share it

… save everyone else struggling to find it.

MichaelG.

[Brian NormanParticipant @briannorman50523]

Thank you all for your comments. I have looked at Spanish sites but prices are generally half as much again as the UK. It would appear from what you are saying that I will be wasting my time proceeding with one of the two lathes I originally mentioned, so I really don't know what to do. As I can't alter my original limitations perhaps I should reconsider if this hobby is right for me so I won't be disappointed.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Brian Norman on 19/01/2017 17:41:33:

As I can't alter my original limitations perhaps I should reconsider if this hobby is right for me so I won't be disappointed.

.

Don't do that, Brian !

Stick to your budget … but spend it wisely, not in haste.

… enjoy the journey.

Something will turn-up, I'm sure.

MichaelG.

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 19/01/2017 17:40:16:

Posted by Ajohnw on 19/01/2017 17:01:30:

I once spent some time finding out what Shereline's idea of accuracy in terms of alignment was. Not easy to find. I wasn't impressed.

.

John,

If it wasn't easy; perhaps you could share it

… save everyone else struggling to find it.

MichaelG.

It was buried on their site some where MG. More of a comment than a spec and not up to what Peatol claim which initially as far as mine was concerned is over stated. It was better. Couldn't fault it even on finish. I did set it all up as I usually do – tight and also followed Peatol's lapping instructions. Just some time with a mix of CIF and oil. 3 in 1 if I remember correctly.

It probably wasn't a good idea to take a cut that might be 3/4" deep in one go with the riser block on. Incredibly thin swarf coming off but it is asking a bit much. It did it though. I have heard loss of alignment complaints from others at times that do much lighter work. Peatol suggests shimming it back up with silver paper.

Maybe the only way to really find out is to get an honest answer from a user or buy one. What concerned me when I thought about them was no spec at all. There should be if they have confidence in the product. I always feel that there isn't that much point in looking at the work people get out of various models of lathe because with varying degrees if hand work even a read dog of a machine can produce excellent work. It all depends on the time some one wants to spend.

John

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[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Ajohnw on 19/01/2017 18:08:22:

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 19/01/2017 17:40:16:

Posted by Ajohnw on 19/01/2017 17:01:30:

I once spent some time finding out what Shereline's idea of accuracy in terms of alignment was. Not easy to find. I wasn't impressed.

.

John,

If it wasn't easy; perhaps you could share it

… save everyone else struggling to find it.

MichaelG.

It was buried on their site some where MG. More of a comment than a spec ….

Maybe the only way to really find out is to get an honest answer from a user or buy one. What concerned me when I thought about them was no spec at all.

.

Well I suppose we'll have to go with this FAQ #1 **LINK**

Standard Machining FAQs

… which actually comes-across as reasonably 'honest' to me.

It won't be a patch on the accuracy of a Pultra, or a Levin, but basically they're saying that.

MichaelG.

[Another JohnSParticipant @anotherjohns]

Brian;

1) A fellow Canadian, John Bentley builds incredible models, and started (and still mostly uses) a Taig lathe.

**LINK**

If I could build the models he built… he even built a model of his Taig lathe. While I have no experience with one, those who have think both the Taig and Sherline lathes are great for the size.

2) My "go-to" lathe is an Emco Compact-8, it does 99.9% of my turning; my larger lathe sits collecting dust. Still, not light by any means.

3) I *almost* ordered a metric Sherline, short bed for my workshop for Christmas. The only 2 reasons for not, were 1) I don't have the workshop space, and 2) maybe my Emco Compact-8 is fine for the really small stuff I want to do – I'll have to experiment before spending the $$

Just some thoughts – a Canadian JohnS

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Brian,

Reading your post reminds me very much of Brian Johns journey. He is another member on this forum who has a baby lathe from another manufacturer, and one who went through a very steep learning curve. I have a lot of respect for him as I believe that his journey was tough in many ways – coming into the hobby with very little knowledge/skill, combined with issues on his lathe. the combination of the two turned into a lethal story.

Like you, his location in Australia is such that he would have to travel far to gain knowledge – from the likes of Hopper – another member on this forum. I strongly suggest that you read about his journey here.

If you have bucket or mountain loads of patience, as the other Brian has, then consider which ever machine you like. The negative comments by reviewers on the competitors Website mentioned above about the C0 are in my opinion from people with limited knowledge to a large extent, typical of about 30% of people it attracts (no disrespect meant – as they know very little) and that comes through very load and clear. There are positive comments on there too, hopefully from people who do know something or ones who are prepared to learn, and/or do a bit of fettling, as this is not quite a 'beginners' lathe.

Yes there can be an alignment issue with the C0 as suggested by one of the reviewers. The one sold by the competitor does not have an adjustable tailstock or tailstock adaptor. The one sold by ARC does. This deal with the problem.

Motor/board issues with this machine again are mainly user related – overloading and/or dirty power. You may say that being a seller, I would say that wouldn't I? and of course you are entitled to think that. I can only say based on what I have seen over the years.

What attracts people – beginners to the C0 is price. Those with patience or knowledge are able to get on with it, and those who don't understand/lack of knowledge without patience don't. Expectation for the price is a very important issue here too. ARC has sold plenty, with very few returns. We avoid selling this machine to watchmakers (as this is not a watchmakers lathe), and we do not sell this machine to France – for various reasons. I am not prepared to detail the reasons as I do not wish to enter a debate on the subject.

There are certain people who like to overload the machine – trying to put on bigger stock than it can handle, etc.. It is not the best thing since sliced bread, but in the right hands, it is still great value machine if used for the purpose it was designed for. Mick Nicholson who writes for a model railway magazine has been using it for years, and regularly demonstrates with it at shows. As as result, we regularly get orders from miniature model railway guys. Although we do not sell this to watchmakers, we have certain precision watchmakers, as well as precision engineers 'with deep knowledge' who have purchased it and used it for many years now. However, in their case, they have completely overhauled it ' to meet their specific precision requirements'. One guy we know keeps it on his bedside table and uses it, and another takes it with him on his caravan holidays!

If you want to make things in miniature, you cant go far wrong… provided you understand the principals, or you have help and patience, willing to learn the limitations/use/fettle if needed once you have some knowledge. Out of the box, it works well for most general use, especially if you already know what to do with it. If you don't, then things go wrong and you either blame the product or yourself or both. Brian John was regularly being taunted… 'to consider another hobby', but he kept with it.

Now, having said all of the above, the last few pieces of this model are available on our website. Once sold, they will be discontinued. We are not discontinuing it because of the machine. We are discontinuing it because of the range of customers the low price attracts with poor knowledge with high expectations for which they really need a bigger machine, but budget dictates..

Ketan at ARC.

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Posted by Brian Norman on 19/01/2017 17:41:33:

Thank you all for your comments. I have looked at Spanish sites but prices are generally half as much again as the UK. It would appear from what you are saying that I will be wasting my time proceeding with one of the two lathes I originally mentioned, so I really don't know what to do. As I can't alter my original limitations perhaps I should reconsider if this hobby is right for me so I won't be disappointed.

As far as I am concerned you are asking a rather difficult question. A friend asked me about lathes so we went and looked at some. He wanted small. I warned him about the problems but suggested a mini lathe as being a minimum. He went away and had weight concerns like many have – in his case a pretty silly one. The shed floor. If it was that bad he wouldn't be able to walk around in it. Anyway he bought a baby lathe – same as  C0 only different make that looks a little different but was essentially the same. He then went rather quiet for some time. About 6 months later he came up and said he had no idea what it was suitable for – maybe turning plastics.

One thing I'm curious about is why not maybe 40kg ? Also do you have any machining experience?

I'm also inclined to think any lathe is better than no lathe.

John

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Edited By Ajohnw on 19/01/2017 19:32:19

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

Another important factor in miniature machines that's oft' overlooked is the "scale of operations", sticking more power behind it, doesn't necessarily mean it will turn bigger and tougher material to a satisfactory result.

The depth of cut needs to be kept to a realistic level on miniature machines even if by name it has the power to do more, you shouldn't be looking at more than 0.2-0.5mm cuts per pass.

This is where the sherline sits. But boy, it is accurate, turning shafts to 0.01 is a casual experience. The wealth of material and literature they produce to help you is unlike any other manufacturer I've seen. The fact they're able to do this without outsourcing any component of the lathe, every single lathe part made in-house, unbelievable.

John is correct though, any lathe is better than no lathe; even if you made it out chipboard and bits you've got lying around your garage, you can still do model engineering.

Michael W

Edited By Michael-w on 19/01/2017 19:47:15

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by Ajohnw on 19/01/2017 19:30:33:

Anyway he bought a baby lathe – same as C0 only different make that looks a little different but was essentially the same. He then went rather quiet for some time. About 6 months later he came up and said he had no idea what it was suitable for – maybe turning plastics.

Edited By Ajohnw on 19/01/2017 19:32:19

Hey John,

Sorry but you are wrong. Your comments are a little offensive. Unlike you, the competitor and Trustpilot, I do know more about the C0 than you. Your comments simply prove my point about your friend – a beginner – without help, support or knowledge or expectations! Perhaps you should re-read my post… on second thoughts..forget it..

Ketan at ARC.

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