Basic Electrics

[Nick Clarke 3Participant @nickclarke3]

The understanding of domestic electrical wiring is still in the UK National Curriculum and in the latest specification for GCSE from the Exam board I work with wiring a plug is explicitly given as a suggested practical activity.

I have been teaching this off an on for more that 40 years to O level, CSE, 16+ and GCSE students so if it should be not allowed anymore perhaps they ought to tell a few more people about it!

[ChrisHParticipant @chrish]

Not knickers in a twist Tony, more a sad reflection of where we are going in modern life.

Brugge market picture I am not surprised at. The area of Brittany I go to, the town street markets frequently have trailing leads across the pavement to provide power to some of the traders; a tripping hazard to be avoided in the UK but the French do not make a fuss and just step over the leads, no more tripping over them than they do the kerb.

A supermarket in the nearby town last Feb/March was renewing itself internally whilst remaining open for business, at some points there were bunches of cables coming up from the floor for the freezer cabinets in the middle of open space, not fenced off in any way – but no freezer cabinets, they were still to be relocated. Another triping hazard you might say, but everyone just ignored them and avoided them, no worries. Not saying its right, just another way of doing things, different ships different splices as the saying goes.

Attitudes and practices related to H&S are very different abroad, again not saying its right, its just the way other countries do things, but it doesn't appear to be a big issue with reports of people suffering accidents or injuries.

[Gary WoodingParticipant @garywooding25363]

***This*** makes interesting reading.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Gary Wooding on 16/07/2020 10:29:06:

***This*** makes interesting reading.

But most would struggle to get through Wikipedia, which shows 'Common Sense' is a difficult concept! Seems easy and obvious, but look closely and it's a tar pit.

I argue it's safer to assume there's is no such thing as common sense. There's no agreement about what it is, and because it can't be defined it can't be enforced. It depends on assumptions, opinion and beliefs, which vary between individuals, families, occupations, religions, politics, nationalities and circumstances. The whole idea is built on sand. Gimme facts, evidence, training, guidelines, experience and laws any day.

Perhaps the most serious problem with common sense is assuming everyone has it, when so much of what we know comes from years of experience. Boys temporarily baffled by tape measures are no more foolish than grandads who don't understand cybercrime. Neither is common sense!

But there are two basic types of problem in the world. When attacked by a hungry bear it pays to act quickly without thinking through lots of alternatives. Common sense pays when speed matters more than getting the best possible answer. However, as soon as the emergency is over, its better to think out a cunning anti-bear plan. Common sense is left in the dust whenever there's time to consider the facts, unless of course paralysis by analysis kicks in! For that reason it's best to have a balanced mix of practical and theoretical skills when decision making. It's never easy.

Dave

[Oven ManParticipant @ovenman]

Posted by Nick Clarke 3 on 16/07/2020 09:47:25:

Posted by derek hall 1 on 16/07/2020 07:34:51:

I am pretty sure that if you need to cut off the factory fitted moulded plug from a domestic appliance for any reason and fit a replacement plug you can invalidate any warranty …..

But I stand to be corrected

Regards to all

The safety officer at one on Englands large universities wouldn't have a moulded plug on site. They were all immediately cut off and rewirable ones fitted.

We trained our reps at work how to fit a 13 amp plug and provided them with a cerificate to show they were competent. It was always interesting to see the reaction of a customers safety officer when they queried if our guy was allowed to fit a plug on the equipment he was delivering. Never had any problems once the certificate was presented.

Peter

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Posted by Tony Pratt 1 on 15/07/2020 22:54:44:

I believe you are getting your knickers in a twist over nothing as I’m sure the regs allow certain electrical jobs to be done by non qualified people or am I wrong? Tony

Quite right. The term is 'competent'. One can even rewire one's home if competent to do so. I t just needs to be to the current standard and be signed off by an accredited electrician.

Anything beyond the fixed power outlets are fair game for anyone. One just needs to be competent. That is something that is not checked, very often, with those posters asking questions on the forum.

Moulded plugs have to be fitted because there are so many incompetents out there. It's the only way to be idiot-proof – until God invents a better idiot!

[Ian WelfordParticipant @ianwelford58739]

Working for a large chemist chain it always amused me that to fit a plug we had to be “certified” , I never was but it was always an amusing question to ask at a managers meeting if bored.

I can recall serveral colleagues who could have been “”certified “but not for that reason !

I always check the plug fuse rating anyway. Can I just say many thanks to Nick as I never knew that was the identification on the plug, live and learn.

regards

Ian

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

You can change a plug or do minor electrical work in your home with no requirement for training etc. Notifiable work and work in special locations (e.g. bathroooms) generally requires you to be part P registered. There is still no requirement for formal qualifications, just that you are "competent" . Registration requirements vary with organisation. But you don't HAVE to be registered, you can do it yourself, IF you can convince your local building control that you are competent AND pay for any inspections they want carried out. I've not tried this, but rumour has it that you are unlikely to be sucessful or it would cost more than using a register electrician.

The other thing you can do is agree in advance with a registered electrician how much work you can do yourself. a They then do the final connection, test and notification. This I have done, running SWA cable fitting mounting boxes etc and it saved a fair bit.

Robert G8RPI.

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Posted by not done it yet on 16/07/2020 12:29:27:

Posted by Tony Pratt 1 on 15/07/2020 22:54:44:

I believe you are getting your knickers in a twist over nothing as I’m sure the regs allow certain electrical jobs to be done by non qualified people or am I wrong? Tony

Quite right. The term is 'competent'.

…………………….

Moulded plugs have to be fitted because there are so many incompetents out there. It's the only way to be idiot-proof – until God invents a better idiot!

Hi NDIY, not quite correct, however any new electrical item that plugs into the mains must have a plug fitted before it is sold in the UK, but it doesn't have to be a moulded one. All the electrical items with exception to an under the counter freezer that I have bought in the recent past, have rewireable plugs on them, all purchased from reputable retailers. I don't think it was totally down to "idiots" ill fitting, but there were many people, like disabled, elderly, infirm and people with low budgets etc. that had to pay extra to have them fitted which was deemed to be unfair.

Regards Nick.

[Len Morris 2Participant @lenmorris2]

I think the issue is quite simple. On public or industrial premises HSE require all electrical work to be done by a certificated person, This covers everybody's backside as regards legal claims and insurance.

[john fletcher 1Participant @johnfletcher1]

Apparently under the building regulations electric work should be certified by a competent person .Being retired several years and out of tough with modern wiring regulations, but having the highest City & Guilds qualification in Electrical Installation work I tried to become a competent person and what a run round I got, I should have been a kitchen fitter or domestic installer. Common sense is in very short supply. John

[Len Morris 2Participant @lenmorris2]

Hi John, click on the link posted by Gary Wooding about 8 responses above this. I think you will enjoy it. I know I did.

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

When I looked into it a few years ago the requirements were down to your chosen organisation. One I looked at just needed you to take their "approved" training companies part P course and pass the test. The coure was 3 days, no entry requirement but the suggested that if you had not done any installation work before you should consider their 5 day basic course. Eight days from zero to Part P. The Part P course seemd to mostly be how to read the tables in the regs and use a specific (not Fluke) multi-function tester. Oh they were agents for that tester but I'm sure there was no pressure to buy one….

I did the same with gas 12 years ago when we moved in to this house. Gas had been taken out so I put in all new pipes etc. British Gas put in a new meter and a good (ex BG) Gas Safe appproved fitter made the final connections, testing and signed it off. He wanted to know how I knew to sleeve the wall penetrations and seal them at one side only, I just read the regulations (it stopps the pipes chafing on the wall, leaking into the cavt and building up until it reaches a light switch – boom.

Robert G8RPI.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by john fletcher 1 on 16/07/2020 18:11:30:

Apparently under the building regulations electric work should be certified by a competent person .Being retired several years and out of tough with modern wiring regulations, but having the highest City & Guilds qualification in Electrical Installation work I tried to become a competent person and what a run round I got, I should have been a kitchen fitter or domestic installer. Common sense is in very short supply. John

Does seem complicated. My feeling is the system is designed to put cowboy electricians out of business by forcing a full range of professional standards on them, not just technical qualifications. It's assumed a Competent Person is a professional working for a Business responsible for competencies, HSE, and guarantees. For example, a Competent Person is required to have 2 Million pounds worth of Public Liability Insurance! The approach isn't designed to help amateurs, however well-qualified.

Nothing to stop anyone registering as a business, doing the necessary training, and buying insurance themselves but hardly worth the fuss for even a major DIY wiring job. Another approach is to pay to have DIY work inspected, but that looks to have been made awkward too. Might be possible to persuade a business to certify an amateur as a Competent Person, but I doubt they'd be willing to take on the liability. Glad I'm retired – I had to renew competencies every year and the necessary study was a right pain.

Dave

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

SOD,
Where do you get " a Competent Person is required to have 2 Million pounds worth of Public Liability Insurance! " from? For elecrical work , you just have to be competent, no defined formal qualifications or level of training etc specified by the law. The problem is that notification of notifiable works has to be done through an organisation like NICEIC so they may have requirements.

Note that this discussion has been about doing work on your own domestic property, not doing commercal work or work for others.

Robert G8RPI.

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

The problem with giving electrical advice is the abilities of the recipient to understand what they are told and to implement it properly. The electrics of any machine are unlikely to last as long as the machine and unlikely to meet regulations 20 years after manufacture. Although we are not obliged to keep chasing the latest regulations just for the sake of it we will need to improve a system when it is modified. As more electronics is being built into modern machines the need to update to replace obsolete failed equipment is going to grow. Fitting a new motor and starter on your 100 year old Drummond is going to be easier than a new speed control board on your 20 year old mini lathe. Having glimpsed some dodgy installations in members pictures it would be a win if people could be persuaded to leave it to the experts or get detailed advice and implement it to the letter, getting something “working” can be a long way from a good quality safe installation.

Mike

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Yes that ^

Robert G8RPI.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Robert Atkinson 2 on 16/07/2020 20:01:53:

SOD,
Where do you get " a Competent Person is required to have 2 Million pounds worth of Public Liability Insurance! " from? For elecrical work , you just have to be competent, no defined formal qualifications or level of training etc specified by the law. The problem is that notification of notifiable works has to be done through an organisation like NICEIC so they may have requirements.

Note that this discussion has been about doing work on your own domestic property, not doing commercal work or work for others.

Robert G8RPI.

Have I misunderstood the Building Regulations? I read them to mean home owners aren't – for example – allowed to rewire their dwelling because it's major work requiring approval and Part P requires a competent person to be in charge. No difference between domestic and commercial work.

A business can nominate a competent person without the individual having any qualifications, but doing so involves the business taking responsibility if anything goes wrong. That's were the liability comes from – it's a commercial rather than a technical requirement. Public Liability cover is necessary because it's unlikely ordinary home insurance would cover damage or injury resulting from major work especially if was found to have ignored the Building Regulations.

It appears to be an interlocking mesh of requirements. Not enough to have a technical qualification, someone else has to say you're a Competent Person, and that someone else has to be a registered Business which means they have to tick a lot of other legal boxes as well. It means you and I can't declare each other to be Competent, even though I'm sure you are!

I think the target is cowboy builders rather than amateur electricians. We're just collateral damage. No problem as long as we stick to minor works.

Could be I've misunderstood, but the logic seems sound. Not saying I agree with it!

Dave

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Hmm,
You are correct in your understang of the building regulations but the person just has to be competent (This can be through education, training, experience or other means). This is different from a Competent Person which implies a formal set of requiremens. For Part P competence a business or company is not required and even for a business it's not the business that detemines competence, but the notifying organistion. The best known is NICEIC. Some seem to have lower reqirements than others. Individuals within the company are determined to be competent (by the notifying organisation) and they can move this to another employer or use it personally (subject to employment terms of course). Non desiginated persions (I hesitate to call them incompetent ) can do work under the supervision of the competent one but the final inspection and testin must be done by a competent person. I know of no legal requirement to have a certain levl of insurance, but it's a good idea. Using a notifying organisation is not the only rout to compliance with bulding regs, anyone can do the work as long as they can convince the local building control that they are competent and or any inspections required by building control assure ompliance. Note that the inspections required could (will?) make this approach more costly than using a approved electrician.
My own area of competency (aviation) requires me to be competent to determine that a design is safe and meets the regulations, but does not have a firm set of requirements defining either. Being a Chartered Engineer is common but not essential and not enough on its on. I'm a CEng now but wasn't whn I first held a CAA or EASA design signatory. Competence is determined by the CAA in this case.

Robert G8RPI.

[Len Morris 2Participant @lenmorris2]

Hi Robert,

I thought the last bit of your post was very telling. I'm also a Chartered Engineer achieving full membership of the I.Mech.E in 1979. Few people know what CEng means, the work required to achieve it and the cost of maintaining registration. I'm well past retirement now but in my final years saw many 'Competent' young people from local electrical repair companies with little more than a NVQ2 well out of their depth repairing our industrial equipment.

Len

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Hi Len,
I'm lucky that my employer pays for my membership (Fellow of Royal Aeronautical Society) and registration fees. Last year I even got them to pay my EASA licence renewal because someone was lazy and ticked "licenced engineer" on a customer document. Last time (5 year renewal) they said that they didn't use my licence so would not pay.
I've come across commercil electricians who didn't ven know basic stuff like a capacitor across the mains causes a current to flow but no power too be dissipated. This was in connection with a motor drive EMI filter tripping a RCD put passing a insulation test.
some time lateer I picked up an electricians course text book at a car boot and was shocked at how much the basics wer dumbed down or jut plain wrong.

Robert G8RPI.

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

Are we not, practical people.? Let your local bloke know what you intend to do, rewire away and get him or her to sign off on it with a full installation test.

Anything with a plug on it is equipment not intallation so it's up to you. These days a fully compliant electrical distribution system will pretty much catch anything dodgy you plug into it.

regards Martin

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Posted by Martin Kyte on 19/07/2020 19:17:26:

Are we not, practical people.? Let your local bloke know what you intend to do, rewire away and get him or her to sign off on it with a full installation test.

Anything with a plug on it is equipment not intallation so it's up to you. These days a fully compliant electrical distribution system will pretty much catch anything dodgy you plug into it.

regards Martin

Compliant to what? the regulation when the house was built? That is likey to be decades go. I assume by "catching" you mean it will trip an RCD. That is OK for shocks and shorts to ground IF an RCD is fitted to the circuit.. This is hghly recommended but no obligitory for the majority of domestic premises in the UK.
Shorts to ground and gross overlods are not the only risk. Now that MCBs and RCDs are catching "conventional" faults it now arcing faults that are causing a lot of fires. A conventional MCB can't tell the difference between a normal 1kW load and a 1kW arc. New devices that will trip on arcs are available but are not mandated (yet). In any case it is bad practice to rely on protective devices protecting against poor design or installation.

Robert G8RPI.

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