A very small Shaping Machine …

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by IanT on 25/10/2013 11:23:13:

With regards to the recent posts above, I'm not too sure how the (ram) tool would sweep in a horizontal arc as it cut (if that is what is being suggested above) but a 'rotating' hand tool held over the work by the (static) ram might? (Does this sound too much like a milling machine??) I would certainly like to know more about your idea though.

Of course, there are shaper heads that allow the tool to be swung in a vertical arc (with the ram static) enabling circular cavities to be shaped and it's also quite possible to 'profile' shape (but not easy I can assure you). There are also "diving heads" (for want of a better description) that enable the work to be turned as it is shaped. A variation of this enables involute gears to be cut (the work is rotated a fixed amount as the table moves sideways – this happening as the ram moves backwards for the next cut). But I don't think this is what is being suggested – so I'm somewhat puzzled but also curious.

…

By the way – if I needed to cut semi-arcs on the (hand) shaper (and I would most likely use the Taig for this) I could fix the ram (X & Y) and use a 'free' rotary table to swing the work, just putting the cut on with the head. But I don't think that was being suggested above either?

.

Ian,

I have abridged your post, for ease of replying … Hope that's O.K.

On reflection, I think I was too hasty in my reply to Jason Udall

When Jason mentioned a "rotating tool head" … I thought he meant a rotating [i.e. angularly positionable] Ram, with its own linear motion. However, upon re-reading, I think Jason may have actually meant a head carrying a rotating tool. … If you are reading this, Jason; could you please confirm what you had in mind ?

I was not contemplating this particular machine having a "rotating tool", although I have also been looking at Rose Engines [Ornamental Turning] and have found an excellent modern design for such a cutting tool … I will post a link, later.

For the Shaper, I was only proposing that the Ram and/or the Workpiece might be moved in one or more directions.

MichaelG.

<to be continued>

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

For info.

Cutting Frames, for Ornamental Turning … here

MichaelG.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 25/10/2013 20:19:00

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by IanT on 25/10/2013 11:23:13:

Going back to "a very small shaping machine" Michael – I have a slightly different approach for you. I am of course heavily influenced by the fact I already have an Adept No 2. Mine is probably coming inside this winter (to join my other small modelling tools) and I have been thinking along the following lines.

I will make a sub-table to fit the existing Adept table – but it will have a series of accurately spaced tapped holes to enable a flexible clamping approach. I will equip this base with several devices (possibly loaned from other machines) such as a compound slide and 3" rotary table both of which can also hold/clamp small parts (so an ER16 faceplate on the rotary table for instance). I will also make a range of small cutting tools (including saws and files) to fit the existing tool head. I will therefore retain the (relatively) massive rigidity of the No2 but gain (I hope) a good deal of finesse in terms of work movement & measurement. Perhaps I should also mention that the No 2 has a base footprint of about 7" x 8" ( and I can pick it up without too much effort if required) so it's not a massive machine in that sense. It's also very quiet in use if course.

…

Anyway, my suggestion (in a nutshell) Michael, is to not completely ignore the larger (hand) shapers but to perhaps think more in terms of finding other ways to move the work under the ram/tool of the larger machine with the degree of finesse that you require. Just a thought.

.

<another abridged version>

Ian,

I'm sure that this is an excellent approach [and it's not unlike what Aciera did with the F1].

I opened the thread with mention of a very small stand-alone machine [by Vautrin], but it is very likely that I would actually build a very small, high-precision "Shaper Head" to fit on the BCA, or the Lathe, or an existing Angle Plate, or the remains of a Taylor Hobson engraving machine that's sitting in the corner [complete except for the all-important Pantograph].

That said; there is a possibility that I will be buying a small-ish Shaper sometime soon …

The options are many and varied !!

MichaelG.

[jason udallParticipant @jasonudall57142]

Hi Michalel..
Ok..I have looked at shapers with intrest..in what they can achive..mostly as a more civilised way of achieving what I might do with a surface grinder..

They have always seemed to require a superlative slide for the tool axis …plus gubbins to relieve the tool on return stroke and at least two futher axis one of which might need auto advance….this seems quite a task.

The rotating tool thing started as musings about the tool motion axis..and digressed in to gentle humour about miller vs shaper..sorry

.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by jason udall on 25/10/2013 21:08:32:

The rotating tool thing started as musings about the tool motion axis..and digressed in to gentle humour about miller vs shaper..sorry

.

Thanks Jason,

I suspected as much, but didn't want to presume.

No need for apology … There is many a true word spoken in jest, and many of our machines are just mix-and-match variations on the basic themes.

[see my Cutting Frames link, above.]

MichaelG.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by IanT on 25/10/2013 11:23:13:

There are also "diving heads" (for want of a better description) that enable the work to be turned as it is shaped. A variation of this enables involute gears to be cut (the work is rotated a fixed amount as the table moves sideways – this happening as the ram moves backwards for the next cut).

.

Ian,

You probably know this ME article, but here is a link for the benefit of others.

These days, the synchronisation and drive could easily be done with electronics and stepper motor[s] …

MichaelG.

[IanTParticipant @iant]

Hallo Michael. Sorry I've been off-line over the weekend, so I have only just seen your posts.

Yes, I had in mind the Base Circle articles with respect to cutting involute gearing. I'm sure most people (with Shapers) are already aware of this and the other available shaper literature. Having an Atlas Shaper (and MF Mill) I'm naturally a member of the Atlas Shaper and Milling Group (on Yahoo) and there are quite a few Shaper-related PDF docs there for download should anyone choose to join the group

With respect to automating the Adept, there have been several articles published that used a mechanical 'pawl' type arrangement to apply table feed on the back stroke. I had already considered a stepper-motor drive as a simpler alternative to these purely mechanical solutions. Gaining the 7" Atlas put all that on the back burner. However, in theory it would then be just a further short step to have a stepper controlled 4th-axis and with a very simple tool profile – pretty near perfect involute gears could be cut if the motors were synchronised correctly.

I also read Dave's description of his powered Adept with interest. I suspect that the question of rigidity is very much linked to the size of cut being taken, which in turn may well be influenced by the size of work undertaken (e.g. it gets pretty boring taking small cuts if the surface being worked is large). My solution was to get a larger shaper (which would still be considered a toy compared to "real" shapers like the big Cincinnati's) for surfacing and to take the No 2 "down-scale".

Anyway – I'm pleased that you found my feedback interesting. Let's see how these ideas develop over time.

Regards,

IanT

[Bob MurrayParticipant @bobmurray]

Just a little brainstorming… A sliding microtome is a self-feeding manual shaper (Oops, it's a planer) that takes very small cuts. A rotary microtome cuts in an arc, but also has a self-feeding mechanism.

Just some ideas.

Regards,

Bob

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Thanks for the comments, Ian [and everyone]

I have quite a lot to ponder before I start to draw anything; but there is one particular issue …

Can anyone suggest a very compact arrangement that would positively lift the tool on the back-stroke?

I am starting to worry that a conventional Clapper Box, which allows the tool to drag, may cause damage … it's perfectly adequate for typical work on Cast Iron, but I am hoping to produce accurate details on Brass.

Grateful for any thoughts

MichaelG.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Bob Murray on 27/10/2013 21:29:45:

Just a little brainstorming… A sliding microtome is a self-feeding manual shaper (Oops, it's a planer) that takes very small cuts. A rotary microtome cuts in an arc, but also has a self-feeding mechanism.

Just some ideas.

Regards,

Bob

.

Bob,

That's spooky [and thus very seasonal]

I am about to acquire an old Sledge Microtome which [if it is too far gone for restoration] may live-on as the base of this machine … and I already have a Jung Rotary Microtome under restoration for its proper purpose.

We are obviously on the same wavelength.

Thanks

MichaelG.

[Keith LongParticipant @keithlong89920]

Micheal

Just tonight I was looking through MEs from 1911 – 12 era and someone was suggesting a means of lifting a tool slightly on the backstroke – a solenoid.

Keith

[Ian PParticipant @ianp]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 27/10/2013 21:41:00:

Thanks for the comments, Ian [and everyone]

I have quite a lot to ponder before I start to draw anything; but there is one particular issue …

Can anyone suggest a very compact arrangement that would positively lift the tool on the back-stroke?

I am starting to worry that a conventional Clapper Box, which allows the tool to drag, may cause damage … it's perfectly adequate for typical work on Cast Iron, but I am hoping to produce accurate details on Brass.

Grateful for any thoughts

MichaelG.

What about using a solenoid to lift the tool?

The only shaper I have ever used (an Alba in school metalwork) had a clapper box so the tool dragged on the return. There is no reason that your tool (bit) has to be hinged, it could just slide vertically and be held off the job by a solenoid.

Probably and understatement to say that some development work might be needed! You would have to ensure the cutting force held the cutter in the right registration every stroke, also not get jammed as a small solenoid wont have much power to 'unstick' it. Actually a simple solenoid can produce relatively high force close to the end of the stroke and you can use the mass and inertia of the plunger as a 'mini hammer' to break the sticking faces.

Ian P

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Ian Phillips on 27/10/2013 22:40:48:

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 27/10/2013 21:41:00:

Can anyone suggest a very compact arrangement that would positively lift the tool on the back-stroke?

What about using a solenoid to lift the tool?

The only shaper I have ever used (an Alba in school metalwork) had a clapper box so the tool dragged on the return. There is no reason that your tool (bit) has to be hinged, it could just slide vertically and be held off the job by a solenoid.

Probably and understatement to say that some development work might be needed! You would have to ensure the cutting force held the cutter in the right registration every stroke, also not get jammed as a small solenoid wont have much power to 'unstick' it. Actually a simple solenoid can produce relatively high force close to the end of the stroke and you can use the mass and inertia of the plunger as a 'mini hammer' to break the sticking faces.

Ian P

.

Thanks for the thought, Ian … but I can't see how to make a Lift Solenoid arrangement "very compact".

If the Clapper Box on this little machine is more than 40mm wide overall, I shall be surprised.

My current thinking is to have some sort of pushrod running through the Ram and the back of the Box … and this could probably be actuated by solenoid.

Does that make sense ?

MichaelG.

[IanTParticipant @iant]

I think a mechanical 'clapper' style box could be made to work in the way you'd like if it was sprung Michael.

I haven't sat down with paper and pencil but an 'upward' extension to the clapper that was pushed forward by a push rod (activated by the ram handle) which therefore held the clapper down on the forward stroke and which released the clapper on the back stroke might be do'able?

I don't think this is a new idea but I cannot find anything that references it at the moment. In some applications the use of a clapper "lifter" was also advised. From memory, this could be as simple as a domestic 'hinge' (folds in one direction but not the other) attached to the clapper box.

Regards,

IanT

[davebParticipant @daveb17630]

I have a Karl Anderle shaper which has a tool lifter. A pivoted tool post fits in place of the normal clapper box/slide assembly, an actuating lever fits on this and to a crank further back along the ram, the crank contains a friction clutch, the tool is lifted and dropped by adjustable stops acting on a lever attached to the crank.

Dave

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

If you want something REALLY compact then fit it on the back of the tool

A collar round the tool and a widget down the back

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

IanT, daveb, Ady1

Thanks for the thoughts

I must have a look at the Karl Anderle arrangement

MichaelG.

.

Edit: just found this rather nice video of the Anderle shaper with Hydraulic copying !!

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 30/10/2013 07:41:23

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

This one looks to have mechanical tool-lifting

MichaelG.

[John McNamaraParticipant @johnmcnamara74883]

Hello Michael

I have been pondering your quest for a small shaper design. I think one could be made with castings made from epoxy concrete, otherwise known in industry as mineral castings.

The same processes I posted on the write up here on the MEW forum for the Epoxy Worden could be applied to this design.

Below are a couple of rough concept sketches of a small machine. The base footprint in as drawn is 200 x 300 Although It can be made smaller if you only want to work on a 100mm cube. (In fact the whole machine needs to be refined), I have only spent a couple of hours on it so far, clearly there is work to do.

The frame and top slide coloured green, and the cross slide coloured mid grey could be epoxy

I have placed the ram on linear shafting and linear bearing blocks for ease of construction, They could be replaced with dovetails for those with the right equipment to make them. They sit on a 12mm metal plate to make attachment and adjustment easier.

the cross slide and tool slide / clapper box are only shown schematically at this stage. They also could use linear bearings or dovetails?

The ram would be driven in the usual way via an adjustable crank arm. It is also shown schematically. It would be great if someone had plans for a full size crank mechanism, it would save a lot of time reinventing the wheel.

Being such a small machine a litre of epoxy should be enough to make it. For those with reasonable woodworking skills the patterns and formwork would be no problem A square metre or two of MDF and a tin of body filler to make the chamfered corners and some sandpaper would suffice.

The various steel components are within the capability of a bench lathe. and ideally a milling machine or a mill drill.

Oh…. and some quality enamel to make it smile.

Regards
John

 

 

 

Edited By John McNamara on 30/10/2013 15:17:03

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

John,

Lovely work, thank you

I seem to have several options … here presented "in order of appearance"

1. Build a very small Shaper Head "module" which can be attached to the various machines or brackets that are already in my possession.
2. Buy a small Shaper and build a "minifier" of some description, that converts it to do very small work.
3. Build a dedicated "very small shaper" around the remains of a Sledge Microtome.
4. Build a dedicated "very small shaper" using Epoxy Concrete where appropriate.

I am currently concentrating on the design of [1], simply because whatever work I do for that should be "transferrable" to the other options.

If I do build a dedicated machine, then I am strongly in favour of the Epoxy Concrete idea … I remember being very impressed by the work they did at Cranfield in the mid-1980s.

Thanks again for your contribution

MichaelG.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

If anyone wants to try making a hand operated shaper, one possible starting point would be the Peter Robinson Slotting Tool. College Engineering Supply provide the base casting and drawings.

It is meant to fit on the Cross Slide of a 7 Series Myford. Mine now uses a raising block for use on my larger lathe., and would need a lot of add ons to provide cross and vertical feeds. But for the keen and / inghenious, such things will merely be part of the challenge. At the risk of being naive, a clapper box to carry HSS tool bits should not be too difficult a project.

Being me, I would want to make up reversible ratchet and pawl mechanisms for the feed!

Any way, I hope that you eventually find / modify / make a device that does what you want.

Howard

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Thanks Howard,

I will have a look at the Peter Robinson Slotting Tool … 'though it seems increasingly likely that I will use commercial Ball [or Crossed Roller] Positioning Slides for the Ram.

MichaelG.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Howard,

Is this what you meant ?

MichaelG.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Hi Michael,

Yes that's the one. It will need quite a bit of extra work to add the feeds to the finished, or modified article , if you choose to go down this route.

I have kept thinking about a small shaper, but have not obtained / made one because:

1) For what would I use it? (Once in possession, no doubt many uses would be found).

2) Where would I store / use it in a HEAVILY congested 2 metre x 3 metre workshop?

Don't say "on a shelf", or "under the bench", those spaces are already filled to overflowing. The only reason that the shelves don't collapse is because they started out as the barge boarding on a neighbouring house!

Good luck with your search!

Howard

[John OlsenParticipant @johnolsen79199]

A four inch shaper is not really all that small, I have most of a 1 inch shaper sitting on the desk in front of me right now. Mind you that is a scale model rather than being intended for actual work. I was going to submit it as a construction series but there seems to be little point in doing that.

But actually I wonder how important it is for the shaper to be that small anyway? I have a 6 inch Ammco machine that I think would do the sort of work required. I also have a 10 inch Alba, which I used to do the dovetails and the bed for the Stuart Turner lathe model, and also the dovetails for the ram on my own design model shaper. A quite large machine can do quite precise work provided it is in good condition, which fortunately both of these machines are. Provided the main slideways are in good condition, the main limit on a shaper is that the clapper box inevitably is not as rigid as a solid toolpost. For some work you can of course lock the clapper box. So unless the space is a consideration it might actually make more sense to look for a standard machine and if necessary refurbish it, than to make a machine from scratch.

John Olsen

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