Poor finish using indexable lathe tools on steel

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Poor finish using indexable lathe tools on steel

Home Forums Beginners questions Poor finish using indexable lathe tools on steel

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  • #405200
    Peter Turvey
    Participant
      @peterturvey44018

      Any advice regarding cause of poor finish when turning EN1A Freecutting steel using indexable carbide tooling?

      Using standard Greenwood type 1 general purpose inserts in a Myford Super 7B. 10mm shank in Dickson toolpost

      Cutting dry

      Turning 3" max diameter EN1A steel bar down to about 2 1/8" diameter

      Speed 290 RPM

      Feed 0.0069" per revolution seems to be getting best finish

      Cut depth between 5 and 10 thou (deeper cuts at higher feeds causing jams and belt slips)

      Checked all gibs are tight but not over tight.

      Chips coming off anything between long blued spirals and fine particles depending on cut and feed rates.

      Getting better finish on facing cuts

      (Component will be a part of a bearing cone puller for our 1914 Stanley Steam Car, so not a need for high finish – but a useful turning exercise)

      20190415_174104254_ios.jpg20190415_174016569_ios.jpg

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      #9621
      Peter Turvey
      Participant
        @peterturvey44018

        RFI re above

        #405201
        martin perman 1
        Participant
          @martinperman1

          I've just finished a project for a friend machining 75mm dia EN1A at a higher speed, 1000 rpm roughly, than you 0.5mm cuts at a slow feed rate and got a good finish.

          Martin P

          #405202
          T.B
          Participant
            @t-b-2

            Looks like a CCMT insert from the photo , If it where me i would double the spindle speed and depth of cut.

            On my S7 with CCMT inserts the best finish is with at least a 20thou depth of cut and a fairly fast feed to get a decent chip.

            #405203
            Tony Pratt 1
            Participant
              @tonypratt1

              Speed is way too low, 1000 RPM would be nearer the mark.

              Tony

              #405204
              David Standing 1
              Participant
                @davidstanding1

                Reduce your tool overhang too, if you can.

                 

                 

                 

                Edited By David Standing 1 on 15/04/2019 21:18:08

                #405205
                Chris Evans 6
                Participant
                  @chrisevans6

                  Up the speed, I would be running at 600 to 850 RPM with those tips. For a good finish when only taking a small amount off consider using a carbide tip with the "GT" ground tooth style rather than the usual "MT" moulded tip general purpose style. The GT tips are sold for cutting aluminium but work well as light duty on steel.

                  The tips you have should be OK if the feed and speed are upped.

                  #405206
                  I.M. OUTAHERE
                  Participant
                    @i-m-outahere

                    Try the other end of the insert or a new insert and see if it improves , make sure the tool is on centre .

                    #405211
                    Peter Turvey
                    Participant
                      @peterturvey44018

                      Thanks for the quick feedback everyone, will give your suggestions a try when I can get in the workshop again later this week.

                      I got my initial ideas on speeds and feeds from the Greenwood website cutting data page by the way.

                      #405212
                      Baz
                      Participant
                        @baz89810

                        Could also try a drop of coolant or neat cutting oil

                        #405214
                        Anonymous

                          Read this thread:

                          **LINK**

                          In summary:

                          • Run at a much higher spindle speed
                          • Bigger depth of cut
                          • To compensate for lack of power you can reduce the feedrate to, say, 4 thou per rev
                          • Reduce tool overhang; the insert should only just clear the holder

                          If lack of power is still a problem try using an insert with a smaller nose radius if possible. Smaller nose radius means lower DOC and feedrate is possible while still getting a good finish.

                          Andrew

                          #405219
                          Neil Wyatt
                          Moderator
                            @neilwyatt

                            Nothing to add really – as others suggest you are being too cautious for TCT.

                            Even 10 thou is quite shallow, you should ideally aim for 2/3 tip radius minimum.

                            Neil

                            #405229
                            Hopper
                            Participant
                              @hopper
                              Posted by David Standing 1 on 15/04/2019 21:17:49:

                              Reduce your tool overhang too, if you can.

                              A big +1 on this.

                              #405234
                              Clive Foster
                              Participant
                                @clivefoster55965

                                Start by finding out what the official makers data-sheet figures for speed, feed and depth of cut are. Carbide insert tooling does generally need to be worked hard to get a good finish but that doesn't always mean very high speed. Some of the ones intended for use on manual machines have surprisingly low surface speed requirements.

                                For example I have some rhombic inserts made by Sandvick grade H10F, type CNMG 0432-23 whose book surface speed range is 85 – 100 ft/min. Go much faster and the edge disappears. Feed is 5 to 9 thou per rev and depth of cut range 14 to 145 thou, 100 thou is suggested as a typical depth of cut to start with. Basically you play with the depth of cut to get nice short tightly curled blue chips leaving a good finish.

                                I have others specified for 500 to 1000 ft / min which is more what folk expect and one finishing type that works best at approaching 1,500 ft/m albeit with a recommended feed of around 6 thou per rev at 14 thou depth of cut. Somebody read the ft/min as m/min when purchasing. Ooops! So they need to go three times as fast as I expected. Difference between mildly scary and seriously frightening. Chip blizzards are bad enough in brass. Blue hot steel is much worse. Awesome finish tho'.

                                Clive

                                Edited By Clive Foster on 16/04/2019 00:34:34

                                #405261
                                Neil Wyatt
                                Moderator
                                  @neilwyatt

                                  Also, if you do want to take light cuts, try ground (e.g. CCGT) inserts.

                                  Neil

                                  #405271
                                  JasonB
                                  Moderator
                                    @jasonb

                                    Have a look at my post at the bottom of this page to see how DOC and feed affect the finish, the harder the tool is worked the better the finish you get.

                                    Greenwoods speeds do seem rather tame, quick look at Korloy for a CCMT at 3" in general steel is 750rpm.

                                    Also if you can only take a cut of 10thou before you get slip and jams then I'd say something is amiss with the machine.

                                    #405290
                                    Rik Shaw
                                    Participant
                                      @rikshaw

                                      That tool is stuck out way to far. Bring it back inboard till the shoulder behind the insert is level with the toolpost and have another go.

                                      Rik

                                      #405298
                                      I.M. OUTAHERE
                                      Participant
                                        @i-m-outahere

                                        Has anyone zoomed in on the insert tip ? Looks chipped to me and if it is no amount of feed rate change will make it work . I typed in greenwood type 1 insert into google and couldn’t see anything of use , in have had issues recently with cheap inserts that won’t cut anything and i put it down to dodgy inserts .

                                        If you need to do things on a tight budget stick with HSS otherwise be prepared to fork out for known quality carbide inserts – the cheap junk isn’t worth it , been there done that got burnt !

                                        #405302
                                        JasonB
                                        Moderator
                                          @jasonb

                                          XD, this is the Greenwood tools type 1, they use a simplified number system for people that don't understand the code, it's a CCMT 06 02 0 (whatever radius is selected) they are not bucket quality and should work fine.

                                          Too much swarf on the htip to see if it is chipped or not

                                          #405306
                                          I.M. OUTAHERE
                                          Participant
                                            @i-m-outahere

                                            Ok thanks Jason , I’m not familiar with that brand .

                                            To me looking at the finish and zooming in on the photos the finish looks to be tearing and the tip looks like the radius is gone – when things go awry i look at this first ,Its a simple thing to change and check .

                                            Ian.

                                            #405326
                                            Nigel Graham 2
                                            Participant
                                              @nigelgraham2

                                              On a couple of points raised…

                                              1) The standard designations look alarming with all those letters and numbers, but are fairly easy to find and to follow, and it may be worth keeping a copy with other references, like tapping-size tables.

                                              I don't know our regular suppliers' criteria when selecting inserts to sell to us, for our use in conditions far more variable than in industry, including our using manually-operated machines not always in the first flush of youth (the machine-tools, not us!).

                                              However, most carbide tips are really for production machines with very rigid structures and automatic feeds, clearing metal at very impressive rates and capable of very high surface finishes. In this area, their manufacturers' catalogues, intended for the precision-engineering trade, quote insert or insert-facet lives of typically 20 minutes at the tip's intended material, speed and feed! (I believe insert life and price is accounted for in costing the work and preparing quotes.)

                                              2) Showers of swarf… make some form of guard or screen easily placed and removed, to keep the swarf where it belongs.

                                              #405332
                                              Douglas Johnston
                                              Participant
                                                @douglasjohnston98463

                                                +1 for the sharp polished inserts sold for aluminium. As said they work a treat on steel. Was doing some 50mm diameter mild steel this morning and the finish was superb, but you need to be careful since the edges can be damaged quite easily if mistreated. And yes keep the speed up.

                                                Doug

                                                #405339
                                                Peter Turvey
                                                Participant
                                                  @peterturvey44018

                                                  Again, many thanks for the loads of helpful and informative comments, had not expected such a quick and extensive response. Making an action list for the next bit of turning to be done. Will check the insert tips again too. they are 0.2mm radius.

                                                  Will be a few days before I can get in the workshop again though.

                                                  #405344
                                                  Peter Turvey
                                                  Participant
                                                    @peterturvey44018

                                                    XD 351 was right, tip chipped off by the time I took the facing cuts.

                                                    rh_tool_chip.jpg

                                                    #405398
                                                    John Reese
                                                    Participant
                                                      @johnreese12848

                                                      One of the problems of using TCT is that stalling the spindle always results in a chipped insert. That is especially troublesome on hobby sized lathes. I am using carbide less and a tangential HSS tool more.

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