EMI from electric shavers etc

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EMI from electric shavers etc

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  • #459411
    Sam Stones
    Participant
      @samstones42903

      From Monday, I shall need to stay a sufficient distance from certain devices that radiate EMI.

      In particular, this applies to my use of a mains-powered shaver, which occasionally produces smells akin to sparking electric motors (ozone? etc).

      On the basis that testing the razor near an ‘off station’ AM radio setting indicates EMI, I’d like to discover if sufficient shielding could be achieved by wrapping a large proportion of the razor in aluminium foil, and perhaps covering that with cling film.

      Is this a viable solution?

      I’d appreciate any positive comments.

      Growing a beard would not please SWAMBOcheeky

      Thanking you in advance.

      Sam

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      #32073
      Sam Stones
      Participant
        @samstones42903
        #459412
        pgk pgk
        Participant
          @pgkpgk17461

          If using it from a bathroom shaver socket that may also contribute. Personally i favour a wet shave.

          pgk

          #459417
          Martin Kyte
          Participant
            @martinkyte99762

            Can anyone remember what desperate Dan used for shaving?

            I know it was something wierd but cannot remember what.

            I do remember Burt Munroe (The World Fastest Indian fame) using a grinding wheel in an electric drill to do his big toenails.

            Martin

            #459419
            Michael Gilligan
            Participant
              @michaelgilligan61133

              Sam,

              One of the most comprehensive documents I have seen comes from Boston Scientific: **LINK**

              https://www.bostonscientific.com/content/dam/lifebeat-online/en/documents/BSC_Electromagnetic_Compatibility_Guide.pdf

              The shaver is mentioned on page 10

              [quote]

              Use precautions: Maintain at least a 6 inch (15 cm) separation between the shaver and the implanted device. Avoid draping cord over implanted device.

              [/quote]

              This seems sensible … But please do note the assumption at the top of the column.

              MichaelG.

              #459423
              ChrisH
              Participant
                @chrish

                Sorry – can't help, I come from a long line of wet shavers.

                But I do remember the smell you mention from when I did try an electric shaver, many many moons ago, when I, and the world, was young. Put me off rather.

                On the basis of a) having to avoid EMI and b) pleasing SWMBO, the second being by far the most important considering the need to get Shed Capex Spend passed in the future amongst other considerations, I'd change to wet shaving as the easy way out, no worries option, personally. Simples!

                Remember KISS!

                Chris

                #459424
                Sam Stones
                Participant
                  @samstones42903

                  Many thanks for your very prompt and sensitive response Michael.

                  Being a rather thin-skinned specimen, and given little time for shaving during NS square bashing I went ‘all electric’. That was in ’56, so I’m pretty set in my ways.

                  Just read your post Chris – Thank you too.

                  I now realise that members who truly understand screening for EMI, may justifiably refrain from comment.

                  It was worth a try.laugh

                  Sam

                  #459428
                  Emgee
                  Participant
                    @emgee

                    Hi Sam

                    I think the problem is that nobody wants to give advice because of the possible poor outcome if they get it wrong, for me I am cautious on occasions and this is such a time.

                    Good luck with your search for some definitive information.

                    Emgee

                    #459430
                    Sam Stones
                    Participant
                      @samstones42903

                      Thanks Emgee. Yes, that occurred to me shortly after I posted.

                      If anyone tells me to "Keep your chin up", they might care to measure the distance from their neck to their collar bone. Mine's less than 15cm. devil

                      Sam

                      Edited By Sam Stones on 25/03/2020 00:40:24

                      #459434
                      Steviegtr
                      Participant
                        @steviegtr

                        Is this the sort of shaver with a rotating motor , using carbon brushes like the old ones did. If so the smell is usually the brushes getting worn down. Then they arc, causing interference with electronics. Just keep calm & carry on. ZZZZZZZ.

                        Steve.

                        #459437
                        Sam Stones
                        Participant
                          @samstones42903

                          Yes Steve.

                          Never having taken it apart, I can imagine it having a segmented copper commutator and carbon brushes.

                          In the early days I used contact-less types where the armature rocked back and forth at mains frequency.

                          There was a perforated steel foil between skin and chopper blades. Then along came the various rotary heads.

                          Thanks for your post.

                          Keep safe,

                          Sam

                          Edited By Sam Stones on 25/03/2020 01:35:48

                          #459439
                          Steviegtr
                          Participant
                            @steviegtr

                            Ha ha yes I remember them. One of them . The guy said I liked it that much I bought the company. Vibrating / oscillating magnet.

                            Steve.

                            #459441
                            Sam Stones
                            Participant
                              @samstones42903

                              Steve, it was Victor Kiam. I read his book back in the 80's.

                              Not only buying the Remington company, he used various ploys to gain easy access to ball games.

                              A fun read.

                              Sam

                              PS – I can see you're working late!

                              #459442
                              Steviegtr
                              Participant
                                @steviegtr
                                Posted by Sam Stones on 25/03/2020 02:01:07:

                                Steve, it was Victor Kiam. I read his book back in the 80's.

                                Not only buying the Remington company, he used various ploys to gain easy access to ball games.

                                A fun read.

                                Sam

                                PS – I can see you're working late!

                                I always work late. Unfortunately I am a nocturnal person. Should have been born a cat.

                                Steve.

                                #459444
                                Hopper
                                Participant
                                  @hopper

                                  Would it be safer to buy a new rechargeable battery shaver?

                                  Braun brand have the oscillating head covered by a foil and seem to work ok.

                                  #459445
                                  Steviegtr
                                  Participant
                                    @steviegtr
                                    Posted by Hopper on 25/03/2020 03:34:44:

                                    Would it be safer to buy a new rechargeable battery shaver?

                                    Braun brand have the oscillating head covered by a foil and seem to work ok.

                                    another late night cat.

                                    Steve.

                                    #459450
                                    S.D.L.
                                    Participant
                                      @s-d-l
                                      Posted by Martin Kyte on 24/03/2020 22:31:30:

                                      Can anyone remember what desperate Dan used for shaving?

                                      Martin

                                      Was he the one who hit them in with a hammer and chewed them off inside or was that an old song?🤔😀

                                      Steve

                                      #459454
                                      pgk pgk
                                      Participant
                                        @pgkpgk17461
                                        Posted by Martin Kyte on 24/03/2020 22:31:30:

                                        Can anyone remember what desperate Dan used for shaving?

                                        I know it was something wierd but cannot remember what.

                                        Blowlamp comes to mind and once shooting beard hairs off with a pistol??

                                        pgk

                                        #459456
                                        Mike Poole
                                        Participant
                                          @mikepoole82104

                                          Avoiding EMI is difficult, failure of the components that control EMI will often not result in the device no longer working. We are surrounded by devices that have the potential to radiate, switch mode power supplies are everywhere and PV solar panels have an inverter that on a sunny day could be working hard. Properly designed devices in good working order should comply with EMI regs but unfortunately some imported equipment is not compliant. Poor installation of things like inverters for your lathe and mill can also result in unwanted emissions, arc welders are obviously a device to avoid. The inverters for spot welding transformer control all carried a pacemaker warning so I would avoid a car factory tour if you were considering one. I am surprised you promote the electric shave as a time saver, in the washroom when camping I find my wet shave is done and dusted while the electric boys are still stood there mowing away.

                                          Mike

                                          #459459
                                          Robert Atkinson 2
                                          Participant
                                            @robertatkinson2

                                            Mains or battery shaver does not matter, they can both cause interference.
                                            To answer the original question, wrapping the shaver in aluminium foil is not a reliable means of reducing intterference. This is mainly because it will not provide reliable contact, even with itself. It might even form a resonator making emission worse for specific frequencies or directions. Covering the razor with self adhesive copper foil, soldering all the seams and providing a ground connection would probably help, but without making measurements you cannot be sure.
                                            An isssue with modern implantable medical devices is that many have a "remote control" capability sometimes with an antenna remote from the device. This makes them more vunerable to interference.
                                            This is a classic case of safety probability / impact assessment. The probability of emissions causing problem is low (probably "extremly remote,10-7 in safety terms) but the effect is catastrophic (death) so additional precautions, keep emitters away from device) are required to bring the probabilty dowm to an acceptable level (<10-9).
                                            Note that on another threads on VFDs I have commented on the need to fit proper EM/EMC filters. Your device is one reason for this so please take care aroung machines with electronic speed controls particuarly DIY set-ups.

                                            Note that the interference drops with the square of the distance, doubling the distance reduces interference by 4, so knowing were the device an any antenna are would allow for a better judgement to be made. If they are in the neck/head then electric shaving is a no-no, if they are in the abomen then you could make a judgment call.

                                            As a professional engineer involved in EMI/EMC I can only recommend you follow the advice given by the device manufacturer and your medical specialists.

                                            Robert G8RPI.

                                            #459461
                                            Ed Duffner
                                            Participant
                                              @edduffner79357

                                              If the motor requires cooling, wrapping the shaver might cause it to burn out. Simlarly, a number of the power tools, especially nibblers we have in for repair have the cooling vents closed off by the owners with silver duct tape, to prevent injestion of swarf. Some motors need to be cooled.

                                              Ed.

                                              #459467
                                              SillyOldDuffer
                                              Moderator
                                                @sillyoldduffer
                                                Posted by Robert Atkinson 2 on 25/03/2020 08:19:41:


                                                To answer the original question, wrapping the shaver in aluminium foil is not a reliable means of reducing intterference. … It might even form a resonator making emission worse for specific frequencies or directions. Covering the razor with self adhesive copper foil, soldering all the seams and providing a ground connection would probably help, but without making measurements you cannot be sure.

                                                +1

                                                With my amateur radio hat on I can confirm wrapping stuff in Aluminium Foil doesn't work. I've tried all sorts of bodges in hope of fixing EMI and RFI problems, and, though some helped a bit, none were reliable. It's easy to make the problem worse. It's a problem where effective counter-measures have to be properly engineered. With EMI there's very little room for shortcuts and folk-remedies!

                                                Is this a workshop opportunity? How about replacing the shaver's electric motor and battery with a pneumatic system based on a Sparklets CO² cartridge?

                                                Dave

                                                #459471
                                                Hopper
                                                Participant
                                                  @hopper

                                                  Would it be safest to ask your medical specialist what other patients with pacemakers etc do?

                                                  #459477
                                                  not done it yet
                                                  Participant
                                                    @notdoneityet

                                                    I suspect this is an entirely over-hyped thread. Thousands of people with pacemakers get by living fairly normal lives.

                                                    When I worked in the precious metals industry, we were simply advised to keep away from induction furnaces and the like. Electric shavers are at the far end of the spectrum. Microwaves , ANY electric motor, VFDs, ultrasonic welders or cleaners, etc are far more likely to interfere, I would have thought.

                                                    #459481
                                                    Michael Gilligan
                                                    Participant
                                                      @michaelgilligan61133
                                                      Posted by not done it yet on 25/03/2020 09:47:10:

                                                      I suspect this is an entirely over-hyped thread. Thousands of people with pacemakers get by living fairly normal lives.

                                                      When I worked in the precious metals industry, we were simply advised to keep away from induction furnaces and the like. Electric shavers are at the far end of the spectrum. Microwaves , ANY electric motor, VFDs, ultrasonic welders or cleaners, etc are far more likely to interfere, I would have thought.

                                                      .

                                                      Suspect, and think, what you like …

                                                      As one of those getting by, living what passes for a fairly normal life … I think Sam’s concern is reasonable, and have contributed accordingly.

                                                      MichaelG.

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