Bending and welding acrylic sheet?

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Bending and welding acrylic sheet?

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  • #25436
    Andrew Tinsley
    Participant
      @andrewtinsley63637
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      #311593
      Andrew Tinsley
      Participant
        @andrewtinsley63637

        Is it possible to bend acrylic sheet (3mm thickness) around a tubular former with the application of heat? Also could one then "weld" the sheet to form a tube?

        The weld is important, glue would not be acceptable in this application. I know that you can buy acrylic tubing, but not in the required diameters,12.5 " to 13".

        The application is to prevent strikes on the secondary winding of a large Tesla coil. The strikes will go through glued joints with ease.

        Perspex tubing of the required diameter can be had but at around £700 it is a route that I don't want to go!

        Andrew.

        #311594
        David Jupp
        Participant
          @davidjupp51506

          I've bent acrylic sheet back in my school days – can't remember the temperature we used, but did it using an old domestic oven to heat the sheet.

          The cement used for Acrylic typically does create a 'weld' – it is a solution of monomer in solvent.

          #311600
          Frances IoM
          Participant
            @francesiom58905

            I’ve bent small pieces of thin perspex around a wooden former in a domestic oven (about 180C I think but found quite tricky to handle as needs some pressure to push against the former) but to get a 13″ circle needs a very large oven to hold the sheet and the former.
            I’d be tempted to cut strips of perspex, angle the edges and weld to form a hex (or even 12 sided column

            #311604
            Neil Wyatt
            Moderator
              @neilwyatt

              Bending acrylic well is a skilled task. I needed some doing earlier in the year and prices for the whole job ranged from ~£300 to more than that just for the raw materials to $illy.

              Avoid anyone offering lasercutting – they add a premium to cover the capital costs of the lasers, traditional cutters are cheaper and you only want simple shapes.

              The way would to be to make a hexagonal or octagonal shroud by heating the acrylic/perspex (very) gently and slowly with a hot air gun over a form and allow it to adopt the shape under gravity.

              I found these discs cut perspex very well. I recently made four 300mm cuts along 100mmtube without any cock-ups using one.

              The usual way of joining acrylic/perspex is solvent welding, done well with a fluid that contains some dissolved acrylic there should be a 100% join. The fabrication I had made was 100% watertight.

              Don't try cleaning cut edges with solvent…

              Neil

              .

              #311608
              Cyril Bonnett
              Participant
                @cyrilbonnett24790

                **LINK**

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                #311609
                Andrew Tinsley
                Participant
                  @andrewtinsley63637

                  Thanks guys, so it does seem possible to do the job, but very difficult in execution! I was going to try a hot air gun and place the sheet over a cylindrical former. It is obvious that some experimenting needs to be done, but well worth a try.

                  Thanks again,

                  Andrew.

                  #311610
                  mark smith 20
                  Participant
                    @marksmith20

                    I use fuming with conc ammonia for wood in long acrylic tubes, They have to have a totally leak proof joint on one end . I tried various glue etc… over months and each failed after a while with conc. ammonia leaking out which isnt very pleasant.

                    I then made my own glue from powdered acrylic from an offcut and dissloved it in dichloromethane , it has held fine for around the last 12 months..

                    I remember when i was serving an apprenticeship at Sellafield nuclear plant having to weld up 300 metres of square acrylic ducting lengths together for laboratory extraction system. We just used filler rods of the same material and a hot air gun with a fancy nozzle (seemed very easy at the time).

                    It doesnt need much heat to bend, i have a sheet of 3mm perpex in the greenhouse which was a temporary window for some glass that had blown out . It has now all drooped over the bench due to the heat  in the greenhouse.

                    Edited By mark smith 20 on 12/08/2017 13:10:59

                    Edited By mark smith 20 on 12/08/2017 13:14:34

                    #311611
                    John McNamara
                    Participant
                      @johnmcnamara74883

                      Quite a while back I was in a factory that made covers for hi-fi turntables, the covers were bent at the front to almost 90 degrees.

                      The method used was quite simple. Imagine a flat surface with a slot in it, the slot was about 25mm wide from memory, the slot was insulated or was it water cooled? in some way i cant remember. In the middle of the slot was a shielded electrical element maybe 8mm thick that glowed a dull red.

                      The method was to place a sheet of Perspex flat on the table over the slot in the right place for a certain length of time then place it over a former and manually bend it. Due to the concentrated heat line the bends were perfect!

                      Oh prior to bending the carbide saw cut edges of the sheets were polished. this was done with a flame, a hydrogen flame no oxygen, directed over the edge. It was a woodworking shop, they made cabinets so the sheets were fed using a feed head as used on saws and spindle moulders, The feed had to be constant the polished edge was very good, I still have a turntable housed in one of the cabinets. the edge shows no sign of burning the material is about 5mm thick.

                      Regards
                      John

                      #311613
                      Mike
                      Participant
                        @mike89748

                        I've always understood that perspex can be solvent welded with chloroform, but I've never tried it. I suggest it is done in a VERY well ventilated workplace! I have bent perspex by heating small pieces in a domestic grill on a low setting, and would warn that it retains heat for a long time after it has apparently set solid.

                        #311614
                        paul rushmer
                        Participant
                          @paulrushmer83015

                          When I worked for a research lab we tried to make a tesla type step up transformer, first attempt strikes cut through 4" PVC soil pipe so we ended up using glass tube for the secondary former. Good luck keep well clear with hands in pockets!

                          Paul

                          #311623
                          ega
                          Participant
                            @ega

                            Andrew Tinsley:

                            I think your hot air gun with cylindrical former is well worth trying. By a modest coincidence, I tested this method of bending acrylic just the other day using the high setting on a cheap B & D hot air gun.

                            dscn1403.jpg

                            I should perhaps point out that the material is some decades old and its brittleness is apparent from the holes which were probably made with a hole saw. I didn't use a former and just continued heating until the sheet was willing to bend. From previous attempts I know that overheating causes undesirable bubbles.

                            #311636
                            duncan webster 1
                            Participant
                              @duncanwebster1

                              When I was involved in high voltage induction heating we used white ptfe between the flate plate busbars, and UHMWP for enclosures. The enclosure around the heating coil had to hold pressure, imagine the fun I had getting a polythene pressure vessel past the works safety committee. To prevent any moisture we had to pressure test it with air, but with adequate procedures we got approval for that as well. Sensible H&S pays off!

                              3mm UHMWP would bend into a tube without heat, no idea if you can weld it. You can't weld PTFE

                              #311651
                              Andrew Tinsley
                              Participant
                                @andrewtinsley63637

                                As far as I am aware Acrylic is not Perspex. There must be a difference as the Acrylic is much cheaper than Perspex! Unless it is a case of "Branding" puts up the price!

                                Obviously I want to use Acrylic sheet as it is much cheaper!

                                Regards,

                                Andrew.

                                #311652
                                Andrew Tinsley
                                Participant
                                  @andrewtinsley63637

                                  Sorry! I double posted,

                                  Andrew.

                                  Edited By Andrew Tinsley on 12/08/2017 15:52:30

                                  #311657
                                  ega
                                  Participant
                                    @ega

                                    Andrew Tinsley:

                                    As you say, Perspex is (or was) a brand name. I have photo'd the label from some similar material (about 2 sq ft priced at 35p!)

                                    dscn1404.jpg

                                    As you will no doubt see, I have had to put two torn labels together to make substantially one.

                                    #311658
                                    Andrew Tinsley
                                    Participant
                                      @andrewtinsley63637

                                      So Acrylic and Perspex are one and the same! Interesting, you live and learn!

                                      Thanks,

                                      Andrew.

                                      #311660
                                      Russell Eberhardt
                                      Participant
                                        @russelleberhardt48058

                                        When I worked at the Mullard Research Labs in the 1970s we used to use Perspex Cement for quick and dirty assemblies. More accurate joining was done in the technology workshops by accurately machining and polishing the mating surfaces and just wetting them with chloroform for an invisible joint.

                                        Russell

                                        #311662
                                        Clive Foster
                                        Participant
                                          @clivefoster55965

                                          There can be significant variation in material properties depending on the details of the manufacturing process and how well things are controlled. The big division is between cast and extruded material. Generally extruded sheets are thinner than cast ones. Extrusion is faster so weight for weight usually cheaper. More variables to keep under control tho' so "El Cheap Plastics Inc" products may not be as good or as consistent as premium brands.

                                          Ageing and stress cracking properties are where premium products usually justify their cost. I suspect the differences are due to details in the polymerisation process and in particular the mean length of polymer chains. Certainly in the long ago days when I had a bit to do with perspex and acrylic fabrications it was accepted that the cheap stuff was fine for flat windows and simple bends. But if you wanted to do serious fabrication with reliable solvent welded joints ponying up for nice new sheets of cast Perspex was the sane way to go. Solvent welded joints in the cheaper types tending to be of unpredictable reliability. Even with the good stuff any sheets or offcuts that had been hanging around for a year or so could be iffy. I'm convinced that bending properties were different between fresh new and been on the rack for a while material. But I was always pretty rubbish with the stuff. Never did enough to nail the knack.

                                          Clive

                                          Edited By Clive Foster on 12/08/2017 17:14:29

                                          #311666
                                          not done it yet
                                          Participant
                                            @notdoneityet

                                            There are methyl methacrylate monomer adhesives out there. Have you tried those?

                                            #311669
                                            Steve Pavey
                                            Participant
                                              @stevepavey65865

                                              Clive is right about there being a difference between extruded and cast Perspex. The big diy stores typically stock the extruded type, and I have always found it very difficult to work. Often the problems appear a day or two after you think you have finished! Stress fractures appearing on edges that have been sanded are common, usually at 90° to the edge. Stress cracks are also common along the bend line. It has has a very narrow working temperature range – too cold and it isn't plastic enough to bend, and too hot and bubbles appear within the material along with burning on the surface.

                                              In contrast, cast acrylic seems to be less brittle. A bandsaw is fine for cutting, provided the feed rate is fairly moderate – 6 tpi is ok, though I have also used a 3 tpi blade and a slow feed rate successfully. Edges can be smoothed with a finely set smoothing plane, or on a disc sander, with none of the stress cracks that appear on extruded acrylic. I have always machined it at high tool speed and low feed rate, with small to moderate depth of cut – a compressed air blast can be used as a coolant. Excellent finish can be obtained with conventional metal cutting tools, such as on a lathe. Wet and dry followed by Brasso will give a mirror finish.

                                              Clarke are one of the manufacturer of strip heaters (extensively used in schools), and with a former it is possible to achieve good quality bends. For glueing I always used Tensol cement – available as a liquid which relies on tight joints and capillary action, or as a thicker, almost gel, consistency which can fill smallish gaps (<1mm). Both are solvents, so the addition of acrylic dust from the sander can be used when no-one is looking!

                                              I have used a hot air gun for bending – fine on small parts but absolutely useless on large parts because it is impossible to get the complete sheet at the correct uniform temperature, so any bending becomes an ugly distorted mess in no time. An oven is the only way, which may then lead to problems in handling the hot sheet without introducing finger marks or glove prints. My preference would be to use a strip bender and go for a hexagon or octagon shape rather than aim for a circular tube. Because you mention the possibility of glue joints being a problem, I wonder if a large lap joint would help, bonded with Tensol, so still glued of course, but maybe more suitable for what you have in mind (about which I know nothing!).

                                              Educational sellers might be a good place to look for supplies – e.g. Technology Supplies

                                              #311672
                                              An Other
                                              Participant
                                                @another21905

                                                As always, there were several articles in old copies of ME – I have one dating from 1949 or 1950 which deals with bending and jointing with different plastics materials. An important point the article makes is that when acrylic plastic is heated, the edges tend to 'flare' or expand. If a tube is rolled using this heated material, the ends appear to bell out. The article in ME advises making tubes longer than required, then cutting to length to get rid of the expanded ends.

                                                The same comments apply to bends – unless controlled by a former, then the bends tend to 'expand' at the edges of the material (hard to explain, but obvious when it happens). This may be a problem with large tubes.

                                                I have successfully made large curved pieces by placing a flat sheet of plastic on a large metal former, then shoved the whole lot in an oven. Let the oven heat up, and watch the plastice carefully – it will flex in various directions, then quite abruptly drop to conform to the former – then take it out immediately and let it cool naturally.

                                                I appreciate your comments about adhesives, but I remember in the RAF back in the 60's ordering cans of 'Perspex adhesive' from stores – it never seemed to work very well, and there were no instructions, and it didn't seem to be sticky – now I know it was cyanoacrylate adhesive – superglue (in 1 pint cans!)

                                                #311674
                                                John Reese
                                                Participant
                                                  @johnreese12848

                                                  Disclaimer: I have never worked with Plexiglas (Perspex) myself. My father did. He got hid joints perfectly fitted then used a syringe to apply acetone to the joint. The acetone wicked into the joint abd created a solvent weld. Would that work in your application?

                                                  #311683
                                                  Eugene
                                                  Participant
                                                    @eugene

                                                    Mike posted, "I've always understood that perspex can be solvent welded with chloroform."

                                                    Indeed it can. I used to make up 5 litre batches of such cement in the lab. for making Perspex plating barrels. These get a tremendous physical battering, but I can't remember a joint failing in normal use. The construction was all lap and housing joints.

                                                    The method was to heat the chloroform up in a large glass beaker and dissolve powdered perspex in it.

                                                    Can't remember the quantities off hand, but I always made sure the fume cupboard was working before I started the job, and got the cigarette smokers out of the way!

                                                    Eug

                                                    #311696
                                                    Eugene
                                                    Participant
                                                      @eugene

                                                       

                                                      Just to add ….. when the maintenance / fabrication guys made a few smaller barrels (hexagonal I think about 9 inches across flats), they used a home made strip heater something similar to the one John described.

                                                      However instead of a fixed bed one side was hinged; all they did was just lift that side, hold it steady at the required angle and switch off the heat. There are DIY versions described on YouTube.

                                                      From memory the edges were then held together with a big, cemented, exterior lap joint using another bit of angled Perspex strip.

                                                      Eug

                                                       

                                                       

                                                      Edited By Eugene on 12/08/2017 20:28:27

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