fitting chuck back adapter

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fitting chuck back adapter

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  • #268902
    Nitai Levi
    Participant
      @nitailevi73768

      Hi

      I want to see if my intuition is right. When fitting a chuck back adapter – the kind that registers with a diameter and bolt circle – it seems that the part that is touching should be where the bolt circle is, while the other diameter shouldn't touch at the back.

      So far I've only seen chucks where the bolt circle was outside the register diameter, so the parts touching were the outside and the register was… registering… but not touching at the back.

      I now have a chuck with the bolt circle inside the register, so I think the register diameter should both register and touch at the back, with the outside diameter not touching. My impression is the outside diameter touching at the back first could distort it (i.e. with a gap where the bolts are). The bolt circle is relatively small in this case and the back touching on the outside diameter seems more rigid, but it's not like the bolt circle is tiny. The chuck is probably not going to distort either way… or…?

      Am I right?

      Thanks!

      Edited By Nitai Levi on 29/11/2016 05:48:55

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      #12824
      Nitai Levi
      Participant
        @nitailevi73768
        #268903
        Paul Lousick
        Participant
          @paullousick59116

          Hi Nitai,

          The chuck should locate with a light interference fit with the register faces on the adaptor plate. The bolts do not centre the chuck, only clamp the chuck to the back plate. There should be a small gap between the faces where the bolts are to ensure that the chuck registers on the correct position. Do not worry about the gap, it will not distort the chuck

          Paul.

          Edited By Paul Lousick on 29/11/2016 06:13:23

          #268915
          not done it yet
          Participant
            @notdoneityet

            I would disagree with Paul re the gap. But it may depend on whether the chuck has a machined surface on which to bolt to. Some may have to put up with relying on transferring clamping force across an expanse of material, in which case it may reflect the quality of the product.

             

            Once, a long time ago, we tightened a wheel on a car where the last bit of tightening distorted the brake drum to pull the wheel centre tight. That wheel soon worked loose.  But saw blade clamps are tightened in the centre but clamp at the outer edge, so maybe not always important

            Edited By not done it yet on 29/11/2016 09:21:50

            #268918
            Nitai Levi
            Participant
              @nitailevi73768

              Thanks, though I'm not sure I completely understand what you said or if my question was clear. The register diameter centering the parts and the bolts not centering anything is clear.

              If I understand, you mean the chuck and adapter should always touch at the back in the larger diameter on the outside, regardless of whether the bolts are inside or outside the register diameter? Or maybe that the back should touch wherever the bolts are not? Since they are sometimes inside the register diameter and sometimes outside.

              On the chucks and adapters I have, the bolts are outside the register diameter, like this (example from Google, with relatively small area outside the register). The register on the adapter is a little shorter than the same on the chuck, only used for centering and some angle alignment, with the outside touching each other to also help with angle alignment.

              Here is the opposite extreme, with the bolts all "squished" in the center, inside the register

              On the chuck I'm considering it's more or less like this, with the bolts still inside the register diameter. It looks to me like it would be better to have the register touching at the back too. The corners will be "broken" so there is no interference in that way. Is it still better to have the back touch on the (pretty small) outside? This puts force like a lever between the inside area and outside area of the chuck. I don't know what would give first, but I'm guessing the chuck would bend slightly before a screw or part would break… The other way around would eliminate that, the question is only whether this would be less rigid because the outside of the chuck isn't touching at the back.

               

              Edited By Nitai Levi on 29/11/2016 09:33:02

              #268921
              KWIL
              Participant
                @kwil

                The slight interference fit is only on the circumference of the register, ie it locates radially.

                In either situation the axial location is by direct contact between the chuck body and backplate at the larger diameter. At no time must the register disk touch the chuck body other than radially, there will always be a slight axial gap, irrespective as to where the bolts are.

                #268923
                Roderick Jenkins
                Participant
                  @roderickjenkins93242

                  I'm with ndiy on this one. On a SC chuck the bolt holes are outside of the register spigot and the backplate must sit on the body of the chuck, not the back of the scroll cover. The backplate is therefore the same diameter as the chuck. On an independent chuck it is usual to make the backplate the same diameter as the register so that the whole thing locates within the chuck register and bolts to that face. That's how I do it anyway.

                  Rod

                  Edit:. I'm obviously misunderstanding Kwil's post.  I have 2 of my SC chucks on back-plates where the register is smaller than the chuck so that, by loosening the bolts, the chuck can be nudged with a hide hammer to get concentricity like a poor man's Griptru.  Works for me (and Tubal Cain – see "Work Holding in the Lathe&quot.

                  Edited By Roderick Jenkins on 29/11/2016 10:08:13

                  #268948
                  not done it yet
                  Participant
                    @notdoneityet

                    Seems ti work for doubleboost, too (see his snnc151).

                     

                    Unfortunately I don't subscribe to that. The register is cut on the lathe, so must be concentric for that lathe. A chuck that needs centralising is a chuck not worth buying, IMO. It should centralise on that spigot. DB also failed to make an undercut on the inside angle. A mistake unless the chuck is chamfered at that position such that perfect seating is achieved on the axial register surface.

                     

                     Edit: Oh, and the 4 jaw chuck in Kwils post will not have a scroll cover like the earlier self centering chuck, so those bolts will go through the chuck and back plate on touching surfaces?

                    Edited By not done it yet on 29/11/2016 12:47:11

                    #268953
                    Nitai Levi
                    Participant
                      @nitailevi73768
                      Posted by KWIL on 29/11/2016 09:44:56:

                      In either situation the axial location is by direct contact between the chuck body and backplate at the larger diameter. At no time must the register disk touch the chuck body other than radially, there will always be a slight axial gap, irrespective as to where the bolts are.

                      If I understand, what you're saying is that for a chuck like I'm considering, with a relatively large register (compared with the chuck diameter) and bolts inside the register, the back should still touch at the larger diameter outside the register, with a slight gap where the bolts are, even though this creates a "lever" between the register diameter and larger diameter essentially trying to bend the chuck/plate.

                      So my question is… why? What problem is caused by having the register diameter touching both radially and axially? Why is this worse than the "lever" issue? Basically whatever the better option is, I'm trying to understand why.

                      Thanks again!

                      #268959
                      Martin Connelly
                      Participant
                        @martinconnelly55370

                        If you are buying a named brand chuck could the manufacturer give their recommendations? If these are not available the next option is to find which surface at the back of the chuck is best for mounting on to give good axial position. Mount a reasonable size bar in a chuck and skim to give an accurate surface. Clamp this surface with the new chuck and check the run-out on candidate surfaces to see which is best. Use that surface for mounting.

                        Martin

                        #268960
                        Clive Foster
                        Participant
                          @clivefoster55965

                          Some overthinking going on here. Fundamental rule is that the main body of the chuck must contact the register radially and be pulled up into contact with the backplate by the bolts. Simples. Axial face contact where the bolts are.

                          So self centering (scroll) chuck has the bolts round the outside to leave room for the scroll. Body sits tight radially on the register and pulled back tight against the backplate by the bolts. Register on backplate is shallower than register recess in chuck so the scroll cover plate cannot be distorted.

                          Four jaw chucks can have bolt circle either inside or outside the register but same basic rules apply. If the bolt holes are outside the register do it like a scroll chuck. Clearance between the register and back of the chuck, bolts pull the body outside the register up against the chuck body. If the bolt holes are inside the register then the register on the backplate is deeper than the recess so the bolts pull the register on the backplate up against the body of the chuck.

                          Backplates for scroll chucks are almost invariably the same diameter as the chuck. Home shop types sometimes make them larger to give room for indexing holes. Four jaw chucks frequently use backplates smaller than the chuck body diameter. So long as they are large enough for proper registration and provide sufficient bolt clamping area the chuck will be securely held.

                          Clive

                          #268968
                          Nitai Levi
                          Participant
                            @nitailevi73768
                            Posted by Clive Foster on 29/11/2016 14:46:30:

                            Simples. Axial face contact where the bolts are.

                            That's what I think… but apparently some disagree, not sure why yet.

                            #268974
                            HOWARDT
                            Participant
                              @howardt

                              When you fix a chuck to a backplate you will have two datums, one is the register diameter of the backplate and the other is the clamping face between the chuck and back plate. Ensure that any internal corners are undercut so that they are clear of any radius on the chuck if the bolt holes are outside the spigot, or chamfer if inside. The clamping face can be reduced to an annular ring extending either side of the bolt holes, this will help to reduce any runout of the face when produced.

                              For greater depth, **LINK**.

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