Where to Start

[James Roberts 4Participant @jamesroberts4]

[James Roberts 4Participant @jamesroberts4]

Good Morning Everyone.
I’ve decided that I would like to build a scale Steam Loco.
I am wondering about what scale. If you take cost etc out which is the easiest to build? I fancy 5 inch or 7 1/4 Inch. Is one easier than the other?
To me the larger scale means larger parts which are less fiddly, or am I wrong there? I’d love to do a Black 5, Britannia, or A3. Would these be a bit much for a first engine?
I’ve got quite a bit of experience in full size vintage tractors etc, so not a mechanical beginner, but no experience building a scale loco or anything scale.
Thanks in advance.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Hello James

Welcome to the forum.

Bigger is less fiddly, but both 5 and 7 1/4 are quite chunky compared to what the likes of me do!

Neil

[James Roberts 4Participant @jamesroberts4]

Hi Neil,
Thanks for the reply. Does the chunkiness mean they are just heavy or something else? Would you know if any of the types I suggested are realistic as a first build? I’ve seen most of them on Reeves.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

All my steam engines have been stationary ones and my one loco is a 3 1/2" gauge electric one, so I'm not best placed to give detail advice. I'm sure more expert forum members will be along, probably overnight.

I'd suggest popping along to a local club on one of their running days. The best way you can get a real idea of the size and complexity of live steam locos in different gauges is to see them at work. Club members can also give you guidance on what may or may not be a good design to choose.

I wouldn't recommend the locos you suggest to someone with no machining experience, but if you are familiar with using a lathe and mill it's really a case of taking it one step at a time and being aware its a long haul.

You also need to think about the boiler – make it yourself or buy one? If the former, best to make it under the guidance of a club boiler inspector, if the latter, you will need deep pockets for the larger gauges.

Neil

[James Roberts 4Participant @jamesroberts4]

I’ve seen the running day at my local club who’s track is in Pembrey Country Park I think they were both 5inch and 7 1/4 inch running there and were pretty sizable locos. Didn’t get a good look at the complexity of them though. I wouldn’t say I was familiar with a mill or lathe but have used both a little.
Thanks for you help.

[Halton TankParticipant @haltontank]

James,

Several things that you might want to consider before decide on which loco you are going to build.

Realistically you looking at 5 to 10 year project or longer, so, do want build a loco for the sake of building it, or because you want to drive it. If later you might want to consider a kit loco that you can quickly build and have some to play with whilst you are building your dream loco.

Secondly consider weight, same 5" 0-6-0 tank engine like a Simplex will weigh around 1cwt (50kg) ish, whilst a 5" Britannia will be double. 71/4" will probably double the weight of 5" engines. These weights have to considered when you building the loco, but also in transporting the engines, how it access from workshop to car, do I have help, are steps or steep slopes involved. The answers to these questions more define your choice.

My best advice is to join a club where advice and help are usually available and to take time before making a choice.

Luigi

[James Roberts 4Participant @jamesroberts4]

Thanks Luigi,
Sound advice.
Weight of stuff I’m not to worried about (rightly or wrongly) as I’m set up for handling 1500kg bits of vintage tractor and all access is level a very spacious.
I would love both to build it to say I did /was able and drive it. So the suggestion of a kit whilst I build my dream loco is a very good idea.
I’ll look into my local club to.
Any thoughts on the complexity level of building on of my suggestions?
James.

[julian atkinsParticipant @julianatkins58923]

Hi James,

I will chip in with my usual advice for beginners not to choose a loco with piston valves or a boiler with a tapered barrel and belpaire firebox or combustion chamber.

The Black 5 and Brit have tapered barrels and belpaire fireboxes and piston valves.

The A3 has piston valves, 3 cylinders (which in the case of Don Young's 5"g 'Doncaster' are very expensive castings and very complex to machine), and the boiler has a short combustion chamber which complicates things.

Also bear in mind that a big ie long 5"g loco is uncomfortable for many people to drive and fire properly on a raised track, and on ground level 7.25" you are likely to have your face in the exhaust most of the time and many people also find the driving position uncomfortable. 5"g ground level is even more uncomfortable IMHO.

So best to join the Llanelli club, and find out a bit more first.

Cheers,

Julian

[James Roberts 4Participant @jamesroberts4]

Good Morning Julian,

Thank you for the honest advice, it is very helpful.

I have this morning emailed the Llanelli club and am looking forward to the response.

Could I ask what people find uncomfortable about them. Is it the reach forward to the controls etc due to an engine that could be 6ft or more long?

[Dean da SilvaParticipant @deandasilva59410]

Posted by julian atkins on 23/01/2018 10:42:13:

Hi James,

I will chip in with my usual advice for beginners not to choose a loco with piston valves or a boiler with a tapered barrel and belpaire firebox or combustion chamber.

The Black 5 and Brit have tapered barrels and belpaire fireboxes and piston valves.

The A3 has piston valves, 3 cylinders (which in the case of Don Young's 5"g 'Doncaster' are very expensive castings and very complex to machine), and the boiler has a short combustion chamber which complicates things.

Also bear in mind that a big ie long 5"g loco is uncomfortable for many people to drive and fire properly on a raised track, and on ground level 7.25" you are likely to have your face in the exhaust most of the time and many people also find the driving position uncomfortable. 5"g ground level is even more uncomfortable IMHO.

So best to join the Llanelli club, and find out a bit more first.

Cheers,

Julian

James,

Julian is one of the wisest model engineers I have ever encountered in the wilds of the internet.
He's exactly right about the tapered boiler, piston valves, etc.

I'm still a little put off by the thought of building my first boiler from copper. At least you are lucky in the UK, there is a following of 5" gauge and 7.25" gauge that is sizable enough where you could chose between either likely and not run into the hassle of a local (or some what local) track not having your gauge. 

The nearest 3.5" gauge track is 200+ miles from where I live. 

-Dean

 

Edited By Dean da Silva on 24/01/2018 01:04:45

[James Roberts 4Participant @jamesroberts4]

Afternoon all, thanks for the help and advise thus far.
I’ve been in contact with the sec of my local club and he’s kindly invited me down to the track for a chat with everyone.
So I can have an idea what I may like to chat about building can I confirm the following.
I should be looking at for example something with a round top fire box, non tapered boiler and slide valves. Avoid a belpaire (I’m guessing pacific flat top to) firebox, piston valves and tapered boiler.

[Adam CroParticipant @adamcro58170]

James,

As useful as the advice is to avoid certain areas on your first attempt I would say also ignore this advice to a certain extent.

These builds will take you years, you will love it for much of the build but you will also hate it so make sure you pick something you like to keep you going when things don't go your way. Pick something that appeals to you and if you are interested in replicating a full size loco to the best of your ability whether this be a general look or to some fine detail then try pick one you can either do a lot of research on or that is in preservation and you can visit now and then for inspiration and dimensions/photos.

There are so many parts to make on a loco you will learn the required skills to do the complicated bits like piston valves and boilers and if not that is where your clubs and forums are a hive of information to help you through those bits so don't ignore a loco you might like because someone said bits are complicated – every loco is complicated in one form or another!

Adam

[FMESParticipant @fmes]

For our club new members we recommend a Sweetpea, a narrow gauge freelance loco by Jack Buckler. Nice simple marine type boiler all tubular so no awkward flanged plates to form – all circular.

Being a 5" narrow gauge, the bodywork is almost that of a 71/4 so a fair lump to carry about – a two person lift normally.

I built one as an 0-4-2 layout with the additional pony truck, finished it in '87, took about 5 years but didn't race to finish it, it still steams well best record was 18 adults on a level track (stopping was a slightly different matter), but quite happy pulling two or three riding trucks loaded with kids (both young and adult .

Regards

Lofty

[Gareth Jones 9Participant @garethjones9]

Good evening James and forum members. I'm in the same situation as James and am looking around for a first loco to build. The Rail Motor No3 has been recommended as a good one to start on. Any comments on the choice of this loco for a beginner? Hope I'm not hijacking this thread, but I'm asking the same question and am looking for advice.

Thanks,

Gareth

[David WassonParticipant @davidwasson11489]

I had my first loco running on it's own steam in 23 months, or about 1380 hours. It is not finished, but, I have been having a great time learning to operate it while I finish things up like plate work. I expect I will have about 2500 hours in it by the time it is really finished.

Here were my requirements for a first time locomotive build:

-Proven design, lots of running examples to witness (don't spend time inventing a miniature loco)

-Build articles readily available

-Drawings readily available (with few errors)

-Castings available at reasonable costs (several suppliers had what I wanted)

-Straight barrel boiler (can be made from stock copper pipe)

-Round top firebox (fewer stays)

-Real locomotive type boiler that a person could make himself using only propane and silver solder (no extra special equipment needed)

-Outside cylinders and real reversing gear, (no slip eccentrics or need to push the loco backwards to change direction, also real reversing gear allows for "notching up&quot

-Reversing gear and all motion works must be on the out side of the frames for easier service and I want to be able to see all of the hard work I have done!

-Tank engine (no tender to build)

-Freelance design (detail level can be determined by the builder, rivet counters need not apply)

-0-6-0 (all wheels are powered for reasonable traction, but, not too many wheels and axles to make)

I have made several changes from the drawings to make for easier service. Cab is separate from the water tanks and running boards. Axle pump can be removed without dropping the wheels. All the piping is easily addressed from the bottom of the loco. Julian helped with a few changes to the boiler and smokebox. The boiler was built entirely by myself using propane and the techniques described by Julian in another forum. My boiler passed it's first hydro in May of 2017.

I also re-gauged this loco from 5" to 4-3/4" to run on the 1" scale tracks in the United States. This required a little re-design of the firebox and the saddle.

The locomotive is of course, a Super Simplex designed by Martin Evans. It runs quite well and notches up nicely. Can't wait to get it to the track this spring.

On last thing, is locomotive building fun? Not really, at least not for me. Much of it is dull, boring, and quite tedious. I am a experienced machinist and this is not the first long time project I have started and will complete.

For me, is is certainly NOT the journey, it is the destination. Operating a real live steam locomotive is everything I imagined and more! It is so fun raising steam, listening, smelling and seeing a sleeping locomotive come to life. It is a thrill for me every time. Then, cracking open the throttle and this little beast has enough power to pull you and a few friends down a miniature railroad track. That is the real fun. I am a patient person, and I knew the work would be well worth the destination.

[David WassonParticipant @davidwasson11489]

Since we are not allowed to edit posts after they have been posted for a certain amount of time, there are a few other things I have thought of:

-Plate frames instead of bar frames (much easier to fabricate)

-Slide valves for cylinders (easier for a beginner than piston type) Steam chest will be separate from cylinder

-Unequalized suspension (many fewer parts and not really necessary on miniature locos)

David

Edited By David Wasson on 29/01/2018 01:05:44

[James Roberts 4Participant @jamesroberts4]

Thanks for the advise gents. I met the secretary and a couple of members on Sunday a had a good chat and got shown round.
So after there advice and the advice here I’ve had a look about. I quite like the look of a 7 1/4 gauge 0-6-0 Holmside. What are people’s thoughts on them? I see it’s drawings are done by Martin Evans and reading round here his drawings seem to vary in quality. Do people know if these ones are any good.

[David WassonParticipant @davidwasson11489]

I have looked at the Holmside drawings. Are you and your shop prepared for the size, weight, and cost of a 7-1/4" loco? It has inside slide valves. Might be more challenging to set than outside slide valves. Most of the motion work for the valves will be hidden between the frames. No one will will see your hard work. At least there is no crank axle to fabricate. The boiler barrel is straight, and made in two sections at the fire box. Will you make your own, or. contract out? 7-1/4" boilers are not cheap. The throttle seems more complicated than necessary for a first loco.

Are there running examples at your club?

Otherwise, looks like a nice saddle tank loco. I have no idea if there are problems or errors in the drawings. You will have to ask others.

David

Edited By David Wasson on 29/01/2018 22:16:46

[James Roberts 4Participant @jamesroberts4]

Morning David,
Thanks for the reply.
Size and weight I’m not worried about, my workshop is setup for vintage tractors with lifting gear for about 1500kg x2.
I’d have to check with the valve gear if it’s any harder to set as its inside.
I thought of a little saddle tank but I cannot find one I like. I thought of a sweet William but I don’t like the fact the marine boiler means it exhausts steam from the wrong place. Also to me I prefer 0-6-0 or more wheels in a tank.

[FMESParticipant @fmes]

Posted by James Roberts 4 on 30/01/2018 09:03:21:

I thought of a sweet William but I don't like the fact the marine boiler means it exhausts steam from the wrong place.

Where do you think it exhausts James? it goes up the funnel as per the norm, or are you referring to the safety valves?

Edited By *.* on 30/01/2018 09:40:48

[David WassonParticipant @davidwasson11489]

Well, if you work on vintage tractors, size should certainly not be a problem. I would have built larger, if it was possible. My Super Simplex fits easily into the back of a car for transport.

You mention that you cannot find a saddle tank loco that you like. The Holmside is a saddle tank loco, do you not really like it?

Explain more about the Sweet William exhausting steam from the "wrong place".

David

[James Roberts 4Participant @jamesroberts4]

Yes the Holmside is the only saddle tank I definitely like.

Maybe I’m looking at the safety valves but all the YouTube videos I’ve seen I cannot notice anything coming out of the chimney and everything from the top of the cab on the sweet William.

[WearyParticipant @weary]

You have a PM in your 'inbox'.

Regards,

Phil

[WearyParticipant @weary]

The safety valves steam exits through the cab roof on Sweet William through two long tubes. I suspect that is the 'exhaust' that you are seeing exiting above the cab roof.

Refer this video. Where you can also occasionally see the grey combustion 'exhaust' from the chimney.

Exhaust form chimney clearly visible in this video,

Regards,

Phil

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