What lathe to get?

[Romeo R.LParticipant @romeor-l]

Hello Everyone,

I was just wondering what lathes you use, and what you would recommend if you were buying a lathe.

I am thinking of building 7 1/4″ loco”s steam and others, also 5 inch.

 

I have narrowed it down size wise:

-Harrison M300 / T300

-Colchester Bantam (old one as they are cheaper)

-Boxford sts 10.20

-Myford ML7

 

I have heard high regard for all of these lathes branding, i have the facility of club lathes but i need to get my own workshop to actually finish something.

 

So give me your thoughts on what lathe i should look for, preferably i am looking for a metric one aswell.

 

Regards,

Romeo

Edited By Romeo R.L on 11/02/2012 15:14:03

[Romeo R.LParticipant @romeor-l]

Just would like some advise on lathes you have/use and why you recommend them.

[MICHAEL WILLIAMSParticipant @michaelwilliams41215]

Hi RRL ,

 

A Harrison M300/T330 is a bit of a different machine to an ML7 !

 

If you really want to make big engines you need a lathe with +5 inch centre height ideally . Its not just the size – its the drive power and rigidity of larger machines that makes things like machining big castings so much easier than it would be on smaller machines .

 

Other people will no doubt recommend specific machines but really you cannot make any decision yourself without having direct experience of a range of machines and their different qualities and capabilities . Try finding people , clubs and suppliers that will let you look over and perhaps try their machines – it will then rapidly become obvious which machine would suit your particular needs .

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

You don’t make any mention of what you will be doing for milling in your workshop, if you intend to use the lathe to do the milling as well then the Myford is the best bet.

 

M300 may be a bit big but a Bantam preferably a later 1600 or 2000 or the similar sized M250 would be a good machine.

 

J

[Roderick JenkinsParticipant @roderickjenkins93242]

Romeo,

 

The Myford evolved into the ideal lathe for model engineering, the slotted cross slide and speed range together with the variety of attachments that have been designed for it make it hard to beat in my humble opinion. However, the size is probably a bit restricted for 7 1/4″ locos but if you have occasional access to larger lathes then this might not be an issue. As your brand list suggests you wish to buy a 2nd hand British machine then I guess the question is really, why would I not buy a Myford?

 

You do realise that you have started a religous discussion here, don’t you?

cheers,

Rod

[David LittlewoodParticipant @davidlittlewood51847]

Romeo,

 

I am in the fortunate position of having both a Myford Super 7B (30 years) and a Harrison M300 (4 years) so I am in a good position to compare them.

 

The M300 has a 6.5″ centre height, power cross feed, metric and imperial screwcutting in the same gearbox, and (often overlooked but extremely useful) a headstock bore of 38mm compared with the puny 5/8″ or so of the Myford. The latter means that if I want to make a part from a small length of say 1.5″ MS, I can just chuck a whole length, do the turning, and then part off, without generating a load of offcuts too small to be useful. Obviously, the M300 can do a whole lot of larger jobs impossible on the Myford.

 

Having said that, the Myford is generally more pleasant to use; the various carriages and handwheels are much lighter in action and closer to hand, and generally I much prefer to use it for the majority of jobs provided they are within its scope. (The fact that it is in a workshop inside the house whereas the M300 is in an attached garage with only a little background heating for rust prevention may have something to do with that.)

 

One thing I have done to both machines is to fit VFDs, and this also makes them much more flexible to use; the ability to increase speed on the fly during a large facing job is very advantageous. Obviously the M300 comes with a 3-phase motor, so you would have to fit some form of 3-phase conversion if you chose that option, and I would say a VFD is far and away the best.

 

Most M300s I see for sale are cosmetically a little challenged, but if it is mechanically sound this should not put you off. They do weight over 680 kg though, so unlike the Myford it is not an easy job to move it around.

 

The Yahoo Harrison Lathe group is a very useful source of advice, if you choose to get one.

 

David

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

I’d stick with the old school stuff

 

Got a drummond/Myford M series but those boxfords and colchesters look the biz

 

Imperial/metric is irrelevant, DRO eliminates these issues, DRO also eliminates backlash issues.

All the old names…now long gone…God bless ’em…would have used DRO IMHO

 

The old stuff was built to do amateur AND professional work.

[Ex contributorParticipant @mgnbuk]

DRO also eliminates backlash issues.

No it doesn’t – the backlash and many of it’s effects are still present. “All” the DRO will do is allow positioning to be set independant of any wear or backlash that may be present in the leadscrew.

Which lathe ? Looking for a machine of M300 size I’d buy a new Warco / Chester Chinese machine – belt drive or geared according to pocket depth. Reports on these machine suggest reasonable build quality & good accuracy. The come fully equiped with chucks & steadies – ready to run “out of the box”. Any “issues” – they are covered with a warranty.

If you were to splash out a 3 times or more greater sum on a new M250 or M300 you would still be getting an imported machine, as the manual Harrisons have not been made here for many years.

FWIW I didn’t like using an M300 – the one we had at the last employment (which was a mint ex-model engineer’s machine, never used in industry before we got it) had a restricted speed range & the dual reading dials on cross-slide & top slide robbed them of “feel”.

The well-worn Harrison 140 it replaced was a nicer machine to use.

 

I have no experience of “small” Colchesters – a long bed Mastiff at work was nothing special, though. And a former supplier was less than impressed to find his new “Colchester” was actually a Colchester-badged TOS at a premium price.

An ex-education Boxford might be a reasonable bet – if you can find a later style one (they do not appear to be thick on the ground !).

I would not discount an earlier Boxford if you could find a good one – though the CUD I started with was plagued with belt slip problems on the awful link belt final drive demanded of passing the belt through the bed casting. An ME10 or VSL-L00 would be my preference (though the VSL still has the link belt).

 

Emco Maximats (V10, V11) have always looked good to me, but seem to come up rarely. When Mercer Bros. in Cleckheaton were still with us (much missed), I regularly hankered after the new V11 they had is stock. Way outside my budget, unfortunately.

 

A Super 7 does most of what I require – the spindle bore restriction being my only real gripe. I do have the ability to take any larger stuff I may want to do in to work, though (up to a metre diameter chucked, or 600 dia x 3.5metres between centres if required !).

 

£0.02

 

Nigel B.

Edited By Nigel Barraclough on 12/02/2012 11:26:24

[KWILParticipant @kwil]

Like David I have both Harrison M300 and Myford S7 (and a ML7). It is horses for courses really. If you have only the space for 1 and it is mainly model engineering, then the Myford S7 for all the reasons stated. On 71/4″ gauge, probably only the drivers will be a problem (9″+) although I have machined drivers on the Myford, they are a bit tight in the gap and on a faceplate. Whichever one you choose, go down the VFD route if you can.

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

Whats wrong with link belts? Ian S C

[Ex contributorParticipant @mgnbuk]

Whats wrong with link belts?

Great at slipping – not so good at driving ! Even when bow-string tight.

 

May be down to the modern, slippery plastic link material – the original belts were more of a canvas-like construction. Had similar problems on a grinder project at the last employment, where link belts were recommended for smooth running. Yes, they ran smoothly, but the spindle stopped when a load was applied !

 

I have, once, seen a Vee belt that could be split. It had a series of holes perpendicular to the driving axis & was joined with short steel link plates (placed inside & outside the belt) screwed together through the holes. I was unable to track down a supplier, unfortuately.

[_Paul_Participant @_paul_]

Something with a gearbox is much better that having to sort out changegears to alter screwcutting pitches/fine feeds.

Power crossfeed nice to have also.

Variable speed a machine fitted with a 3 phase motor running off an inverter will give you all the control you need.

 

Personally I would suggest a Boxford “A” or “AUD” (imperial) should do pretty much anything you want, I see Ebay has some currently advertised there are normally one or two on Homeworkshop too.

 

Or (more expensive) a Myford Super 7 with power crossfeed.

 

Both machines are not incredibly heavy to move around and can be part stripped relatively easily for transportation.

 

Regards

 

Paul

[David LittlewoodParticipant @davidlittlewood51847]

Nigel,

 

You have a point about the feel of the M300 – indeed I made a similar reference above – but I take issue with your claim that it has a limited speed range. Mine – and I assume they are all the same – has marked speeds on the speed selector of 40 – 2500 rpm; with the VFD, the lowest setting gives about a 4 rpm speed, and since VFDs typically give a 10 -20% increase at their maximum it probably goes up to 2750 – 3000 rpm, at which point it gets quite scary and you have to check the maximum permitted speed for your chucks. What more do you want?

 

I did seriously consider getting a Warco geared head machine of about the same paper spec and price, and I’m still not sure why I went the way I did. One factor (not too important to me, might be to my heirs) is that a Warco 6.5″ lathe will lose over half its value the moment you buy it; a good second hand European lathe of the period when lathes were actually made here will have done all its depreciation and should still be worth a large fraction of what you paid for it.

 

David

[Ex contributorParticipant @mgnbuk]

I take issue with your claim that it has a limited speed range

No VFD on the ex-work one, but IIRC it only had 8 speeds & wide variations between them ? I no longer have access to the machine (so cannot check to be certain) but I do recall having to run faster or slower that I wanted to on occasions. (A quick Googling says 12 speeds, 40-2500 rpm, but “our” machine has been modified by it’s original model engineer owner to run more slowly. 28 – 1750 rings a bell but, as above, I can no longer check for certain). So maybe my original comment was not altogether warranted.

Price drops on Chinese imports of this size used ? Seem to hold up pretty well on Ebay – probably helped by the quite large price increases on the new ones in recent years. A Warco BH600 has gone on today – will be interesting to see how it goes !

The difficulty with used European machines is getting a decent one (i.e. one not flogged to death in industry) for reasonable money.

[JonParticipant @jon]

The simple answer then is to bide your time finding the right English or US machine.

No chinese import can compete with a 600 Group made machine in terms of thread cutting with or without the Ainjest.

 

Having had a seriously modded ML7 for 9 years then a Harrison 140 which was a total revelation, i could actually do something.

I shoved a 16mm masonary drill down the ML7 to i could get above 14mm, still very limited and a right pain.

 

The Harrison 140/11″ has a clutch and is made as a metric machine up to 1965, a total joy to use really miss it.

The M300 is what the chinese made ones try to emulate but cant. Decent strong castings in fact every item is quality certainly on the older ones built to last and take abuse. Parts are available but expensive.

 

Times may change when the chinese finally after 20 odd years start producing the 600 Groups best asset. One gearbox and no change wheels to faff around with, just dial it in, pitch and whether metric or imperial TPI, easy.

Likewise parts are mainly not available, have to be ordered and charged exorbitant rates such as £266 for a 3/4HP motor, Machine Mart price at time was £56. Transfer mini gearbox for mill £244 plus del, i only paid £930 for whole mill. The point being its the same price structure across the board.

 

All i can say is i am glad i didnt buy either the Crusader or the lesser BH600 belt driven jobby with various common metric pitches it cant do 12 years ago. Criminal!

 

[Ex contributorParticipant @mgnbuk]

The M300 is what the chinese made ones try to emulate but cant.

 

It is my understanding that the current M300 (along with other 600 manual lathes) is a Chinese made lathe, and has been for some time.

 

The M250 was at one time a Russian built machine, rebuilt in Cleckheaton with a new bed casting (the Russian iron would not harden to the required hardness, I understand) and a couple of gears changed in the headstock to get quieter running.

 

Pity the M300 didn’t get the clutch that was standard on the 140 – as I said earlier, I found the 140 a nicer machine to use than the M300

[JonParticipant @jon]

Probably right current M300 etc made in china, mines good ole English when Britain was great.

 

What i cant understand and quite frankly find it unbelievable, is no asian producer even in the reknowned copying capital of the world has to date made a machine with literally a dial in screwcutting box. ie most squarer Colchesters/Clausing and Harrisons from the 50’s on.

As you know on M300 its only a total of 4 knobs/levers to select any pitch whether metric to 3.5mm or imperial up to 3 1/4 TPI plus modular etc with no missed pitches, thats my point.

Its only above 3.5mm pitch the two change wheels 44 and an 88 are reversed to go up to 14mm pitch.

 

There are loads of disgruntle customers having bought a supposed full spec machine to find out they cant cut certain pitches. BH600 is one, many missing.

 

The 140 was made as a metric machine though could do imperial with faffing about with change wheels, i had a full hard to get set but no reversible pitch plate.

I swear blind the smaller 140 had a larger width to top slide and definately more travel on the cross feed. Mine was a rare single phase 1 1/2hp motor, believe it or not could put bigger cuts on than 3hp M300.

[Nigel BennettParticipant @nigelbennett69913]

Going back to the original question:

 

1. Do you have the physical space in your workshop for the M300 – and space around it to open all the access covers as well as work at it? And is your floor strong enuff?

 

2. Presuming you are running on single phase, what power do you have available? If you’re running at the end of a single 2,5mm^2 twin-and-earth cable, the amperage you can safely get out of it will seriously limit the size of motor you can drive. (Driving a 3 phase 3hp motor from this via an inverter would not be a Good Plan.)

 

3. Can you actually man-handle over half a ton of machinery into your workshop? Yes, Mr Cox from Landylift could no doubt help you, but moving it down a long flight of stairs into a cellar would make even him draw in his breath rather sharply.

 

4. Myford lathes do hold their prices very well – ridiculously so if you look at dealers selling almost new ones – so for a bigger bang for your buck, I’d suggest you go for a Boxford, as a minimum for 7.1/4″g stuff.

 

5. Don’t discount the Colchester Chipmaster, either; it’s similarly-sized to the Bantam but does more in the way of screwcutting, if you need that. Again, though, as standard it comes with a 3hp motor.

 

Good luck with your quest!

[graham howeParticipant @grahamhowe83128]

quote Jon

There are loads of disgruntle customers having bought a supposed full
spec machine to find out they cant cut certain pitches. BH600 is one,
many missing.

 

The addition of 2 gears provides all pitches and more. I am unsure why they are not supplied as normal, in my case Warco did supply them. If you have the time to select a used lathe that is in good condition then clearly that is the way forward but if the used lathe requires new parts these can cost more than the purchase price. The Chinese lathes provide an adequate machine especially in the home workshop environment but not a production one but then again that applies to used machines made in UK as they are old designs and don’t talk cnc.

[elanmanParticipant @elanman]

Romeo,

M300 yes. T300 no, it has no screw cutting. Also for Mod and DP worms you do need the 56T gearwheel supplied with a new M300.

As others have said imp or metric is not important, get a DRO.

Cheers

John

[David LittlewoodParticipant @davidlittlewood51847]

In answer to Nigel’s comments above:

 

(1) The only access actually required to the innards of the M300 is the two doors to the left of the headstock – the upper one (actually a removable panel) for changing gears (never needed to do it in 4 years) and the lower one to get to the wiring (did it once when wiring up, never opened since. To be fair, to get the best advantage of the large spindle bore, you also need access to get bar material in. In summar, yes it needs a couple of feet the right, nothing else is necessary.

 

(2) My 3 HP motor and suitable VFD works perfectly well from a normal ring main socket. I actually checked the power consumption with a wattmeter, and the most I could get it up to was 1 kW (i.e. a third of what a typical electric kettle takes).

 

(3) True; however, I was deeply impressed when Andy (I think) from Home & Workshop Machinery actually lifted the headstock end by himself to move it into position. Note the thing weighs about 680 kg, rather concentrated at the headstock end, and he didn’t even want to remove any of the fittings….

 

(4) True.

 

(5) Not familiar with them – but see 3 above re power requirements.

 

In answer to John, I agree that a DRO system is so impressively useful on a milling machine (in fact, having fitted one, I would never again have a mill without one), but I have never felt it to be quite so useful on a lathe so have not fitted one to either of mine. The precision on the leadscrew handwheel on the S7 helps enormously hwere of course.

 

David

Edited By David Littlewood on 13/02/2012 16:43:03

[David LittlewoodParticipant @davidlittlewood51847]

Sorry, (1) above should of course say “a couple of feet to the left”.

 

I find the inability to edit mistakes in one’s own post on this forum (at least after you have left and come back) is completely daft.

 

David

Edited By David Littlewood on 13/02/2012 18:39:29

[JonParticipant @jon]

I take it your wired direct to motor at 220V David, soft start etc 2.2KW max 3ph output.

I did have a similar 220V inverter and was told people run these from a 3 pin 13A socket.

 

Mines fed with 400V and draws around 1KW with small 5 1/4″ chuck spinning under no load. Chicken feed for these machines noticed earlier today with a 6mm facing cut in 6082 alum, it drawed over 5KW on the 240V supply.

My inverters wired straight to a C type 32A fuse not enough for 7.5kw 3ph apparently but the motor wont draw that.

[Nigel BennettParticipant @nigelbennett69913]

My comments about the wiring are based on the assumption that the workshop is external, and powered by a single 2.5mm^2 cable from the domestic distribution board.

If this cable is buried, I read from the current (2008 as amended 2011) IET Wiring regs that this reduces the maximum cable rating by 10%, to about 20A.

 

3HP is 2200W, or 10A at 220V. But this would be the required maximum OUTPUT of an inverter; it requires more going into it to generate this output, so it’s sailing pretty close to the wind, particularly if you’ve hung a heater and some lighting on to the same power supply.

 

Personally, if I were fitting a VFD inverter-supplied 3HP motor in my shop, I’d want it separately fed with 4mm^2 cable from a dedicated 20A fuse/MCB.

 

Obviously if you’re not peeling great smoking chunks off stainless steel it won’t be a problem. But the temptation is there to use the power of the motor if it’s there.

 

No, I’m not an electrical engineer, but I’ve read enough of the Wiring regs to scare me to death…

 

[David LittlewoodParticipant @davidlittlewood51847]

As I said above, mine is on a normal household ring main, which is quite capable of supplying any load I have managed to put on it. IIRC, it was even supplied (by a reputable manufacturer) with a 13A 3-pin plug on it.

 

David

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