What am I?

[Anonymous]

Ho hum, another dispiriting thread leading to the usual disparaging remarks. Since I've been an academic in the past according to the experts on here I must be practically useless. So I'm going to have to come clean; all the pictures in my albums have been photoshopped.

Andrew

[Kiwi BlokeParticipant @kiwibloke62605]

There has been reference to healthcare workers. Be glad you're not a gynaecologist – generally referred to as a 'fanny mechanic' [can I say that?] in the trade. I'm not aware of medics being referred to as 'health engineers', but perhaps it's coming. Regarding competence vs qualifications: a SEN nurse I knew cheerfully acknowledged that she was of a lower order than a SRN, but was proud that she knew how to make sure one was comfortable in bed…

[David ColwillParticipant @davidcolwill19261]

Since the word engineer is also a verb that means to skilfully or cleverly arrange for something to happen (in our case for the OP to build a model), I can see no reason why anyone can't use the term if they have actually completed all or part of said model.

Obviously My Time Media are missing out here.

As the owners of the oldest and most respected publication in this field, who better to oversee the start of a Chartered Model Engineers Institution.

A small fee, a quick test and a few photos of last weeks potterings and it's David Colwill CME to you!

Regards.

David.

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

There are two basic ways of identifying something. Look at what it does or read the label. The Institutes basically issue labels. Just because something does not have a label that says its a duck doesn't mean it's not a duck.

There is no compulsion to join institutes. If someone has a Doctorate of Mechanical Engineering but is not a member of an institute it they still may be an engineer. Labels are not the most important thing it's what you do that matters. Generally the labels are correct, the institutes are quite good at what they do as are our academic intitutions but there are many good ducks without labels as well as with them.

The encouraging thing at the moment is the STEM movement which is doing sterling work in encouraging young people into Science and Engineering (the doing thereof).

regards Martin

[Jouke van der VeenParticipant @joukevanderveen72935]

It is some time ago but …

In summer 1972 I spent about half a year as an apprenticeship at BHRA in Cranfield ( I worked at the Thames Flood Barrier project). I still remember discussions about titles collected by education, practice, etc.

At that time I was a student at Groningen University and studied Applied Physics with specialization in Materials Science. After passing all examinations you got the title “ingenieur”. That was an exception since this title was normally given by the so called “Technische Hogeschool”, the present Technical University.

At BHRA almost al technical employees appeared to be engineers. In the beginning this was a little bit confusing to me but it was explained to me. One of the bosses also told me, as I remember me well, that when you passed a technical or applied examination at Cambridge University then you got the title MSc but when you passed equivalent examinations at Oxford University then it was the title MA.

The title of ir (ingenieur), do not confuse it with ing (also ingenieur which needs some explanation), is still used in The Netherlands but official titels given by (Technical) Universities are now BSc and MSc.

[Anonymous]

Posted by Jouke van der Veen on 26/11/2020 10:17:06:

One of the bosses also told me, as I remember me well, that when you passed a technical or applied examination at Cambridge University then you got the title MSc but when you passed equivalent examinations at Oxford University then it was the title MA.

I can't speak for Oxford as I didn't go there, but I'm not sure your boss was correct about Cambridge. At undergraduate level Cambridge is unusual in that all undergraduate degrees lead to a BA, irrespective of subject. An MA at Cambridge isn't issued on the basis of exams, it's awarded as a matter of course to those with a BA after meeting certain administrative requirements. There were M.Phil degrees awarded by study and research. When I was there (1980s) postgraduates normally started on a Ph.D. and if one didn't make the grade at the end of year one you were given an M.Phil and asked to leave. It seems to be radically different now. There are many taught courses at Masters level and it is mandatory to have done some of these courses before commencing a Ph.D. I'm not convinced that's a good move. When I started I'd never heard of pulse compression radar, but at least it meant I began my research without any preconceived ideas.

I worked for a while in Enschede; I remember passing the Technische Hogeschool when walking to and from the railway station and my preferred hotel. I assume that was different from the University of Twente (?) which was over the road from the factory where I was working.

Andrew

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by Martin Connelly on 26/11/2020 08:38:23:

…

One of the oddities that always amused us was that despite the fact that in the latter years they all had mobile phones one of the first hurdles they had was they felt uncomfortable using the phone to contact companies or people they had had no dealings with before.

Martin C

That's 'cos it required people skills and they were engineers.

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

To go back to the original post. Could someone be an engineer without a degree or memebership of an engineering institute?

Clearly Engineering and Engineers predate Universities and Engineering Institutes so engineers can have an independent existance without these organisations. I cite Archemedes as an example of an engineer and Roman aquaducts as engineering. Therefor the answer to the original question is yes.

Can Engineers be artists too, yes.

Can Engineers have people skills , yes.

Can you be a theoritician and make things, yes.

Can you be good at making things and also do the maths, yes.

regards Martin

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by Jon Lawes on 24/11/2020 22:28:17:

I've worked in engineering all my life, primarily aircraft. I've been a model engineer for a few years, but I confess I have no qualifications other than an MoD apprenticeship.

When discussing hobbies with a colleague I said I was a model engineer. He then pointedly told me that I wasn't any sort of engineer as to be called an engineer I would have had to go to university, or be chartered in some way.

All my working life I thought I was an engineer (it was in my job title a few times), but it turns out I was misled.

So what am I?

Edited By Jon Lawes on 24/11/2020 22:28:42

I don't know about the UK system but here in Australia to work unsupervised on the tools on aircraft you have to get certification as a Licensed Aircraft Maintenance Engineer or LAME. So that would make you a licensed engineer. (We just call them Lameys.)

I got an Engineers License when I worked in the USA, running large steam boilers and associated plant. Still have the piece of paper to prove I am a Licensed Engineer, First Class. (Around here its just called a boiler attendant and engine driver.)

As far as general goes, I think once you have built a working model engine and run it, you can call yourself a Model Engineer.

After all, if a charioteer is an expert on the chariot, and a musketeer is an expert on muskets, an engineer must be an expert on engines (in the original sense of machinery in general).

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

Posted by Martin Kyte on 26/11/2020 11:17:55:

To go back to the original post. Could someone be an engineer without a degree or memebership of an engineering institute?

Clearly Engineering and Engineers predate Universities and Engineering Institutes so engineers can have an independent existance without these organisations. I cite Archemedes as an example of an engineer and Roman aquaducts as engineering. Therefor the answer to the original question is yes.

Can Engineers be artists too, yes.

Can Engineers have people skills , yes.

Can you be a theoritician and make things, yes.

Can you be good at making things and also do the maths, yes.

regards Martin

Yes. Perhaps an engineer is defined by having brought a tangible thing into being using their own skills, that wasn't there before.

Qualifications and standards are just human constructs to try to benchmark an essentially chaotic world, like a species is simply a human classification of a snapshot in the development of life.

[Jouke van der VeenParticipant @joukevanderveen72935]

Andrew,

I live in Almelo, not far from Enschede.

In Enschede you had “Technische Hogeschool Twente”. Delft and Eindhoven had also Technische Hogescholen. They are now “Technische Universiteit” and the one in Enschede is named “Technical University Twente”.

I assume, talking about radar, that you had connections with Thales in Hengelo building radar systems etc?

I am an ingenieur from RUG (Groningen University) and worked for a PhD at TUD (Delft Technical University) at that time still “Technische Hogeschool Delft”. Whats in the name.

[JAParticipant @ja]

Posted by Martin Kyte on 26/11/2020 11:17:55:

To go back to the original post. Could someone be an engineer without a degree or memebership of an engineering institute?

Clearly Engineering and Engineers predate Universities and Engineering Institutes so engineers can have an independent existance without these organisations. I cite Archemedes as an example of an engineer and Roman aquaducts as engineering. Therefor the answer to the original question is yes.

Can Engineers be artists too, yes.

Can Engineers have people skills , yes.

Can you be a theoritician and make things, yes.

Can you be good at making things and also do the maths, yes.

regards Martin

Yes.

You do not need a degree to become a member of one of the engineering institutions. They know that there are a lot of good people working in engineering without degrees who are worthy of becoming chartered engineers. Therefore there are various routes to CEng that ignore degrees etc.

The company I worked had no interest in the institutions so none of us became CEngs. One day a major customer asked "How many CEngs do you employ?" Suddenly we were all encouraged to join an institution and become CEngs with the costs being met by the company. A colleague with only an HNC joined the IMechE after his work was thoughly reviewed. He went on to become a follow of the institution.

I was told, as an apprentice, that "Engineers have institutions, mothers had institutes". Quite a few engineers I worked with, without being sexist, would have been better off in institutes.

JA

[Jouke van der VeenParticipant @joukevanderveen72935]

JA,

in our company happened the same.

Early nineties we had a merge and became more international and we started to work in aerospace as well.

The Technical Director said that our qualifications should be more clear.

Most of us became “Eur Ing”, based on both education and experience. I think it was controlled by the international organisation FEANI. Our company paid for it. I think it is now CEng. But in the post address on paperwork send to me there is still always Eur Ing behind my name .

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

A tale, and engineer came to me to use my lathe, OK, lots of cursing and swearing so I looked over his shoulder to see the lathe going in reverse! Now he was a qualified engineer with some title or other whereas i was a Technician.

Every time he hit a buffer he would come to me to fix and sort, so was I better than him? but without the title?

Now he was not the only one who was like that but was paid good money for it.

I understand that some CNC workers can programme machine code to make parts on the machines but cannot do bench work and have no knowledge of materiels or general workshop procedure.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by JA on 26/11/2020 13:13:10:

Posted by Martin Kyte on 26/11/2020 11:17:55:

…

…

I was told, as an apprentice, that "Engineers have institutions, mothers had institutes". Quite a few engineers I worked with, without being sexist, would have been better off in institutes.

JA

Unlike Engineers who might turn out to be useful one day, Apprentices are undoubtedly the lowest form of life on the planet. Their purpose is to be terrified, teased, misled, exploited and abused. Otherwise they are a useless excrescence.

I suspect the young JA was being practised on when told "Engineers have institutions, mothers had institutes". Or maybe his interlocutor was innocently parroting what he'd been told whilst wet behind the ears.

Mechanics Institutes were once widespread throughout the UK, and did much to educate and amuse our technically minded forefathers. I've also heard talk of some sort of Institute of Technology in Massachusetts, but I expect it's an exaggeration – you know what Americans are like!

Unlike Engineers (who are too often the spawn of Apprenticeships, see above), UK Institutes have a protected status – using the title without permission is a criminal offence. Curiously, most British Institutes don't mention they are Institutes. The Rutherford Appleton Laboratory is an Institute, as is the British Antarctic Survey, and the National Physical Laboratory. It means they meet high standards.

The Women's Institute is an exception. Wouldn't surprise me if the WI were criminals – look at their aggressively sexist recruitment policy, and my Ex is a member – but apart from them Institutes are respectable.

Dave

[mechman48Participant @mechman48]

Ref back to my previous post; Also during my career I was registered as Technical member with Institute of Occupational Safety & Health ( I.O.S.H. & entitled to use tech.IOSH after my name ) I s'pose that made me a Health & Safety Engineer..

George.

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Posted by Martin Kyte on 26/11/2020 08:45:10:

Robert said

"Martin Kyle and Howard Lewis made a couple of opposing comments about Chartered Engineers but neither are correct. I’m talking UK here just to be clear.
Martin said “Membership of an engineering institute confers some argument to call yourself an engineer (in fact all it does is allow you to state that you are a member of the institute and add CEng as permitted by their charter,….”Being member of an institute is not enough. The institute must be licensed by the Engineering Council to asses you. The standard is set by UK-SPEC not the institution. "

Firstly my name is Kyte not Kyle and what I said is correct. All the individual has to do is be a member of the said institute. It's the institutes responsibility to maintain their licence. as I said, full membership allows the use of MIEE (or whatever) and CEng. I also stated that I qualified for membership of the IEE through the HND CEI Part 2 route, the CEI being the council of the engineering institutes body which is the UK-SPEC standard Robert was talking about.

I don't mind you making additional comments but don't say I'm wrong when you then go on to say the same thing thankyou.

regards Martin

@Martin Kyte

Sorry for gettng your name wrong, Not sure if I misread it or mistyped.

What you are saying is not correct. While the requiremenent for full membership may similar to to that for professional registration as a Chartered Engineer, being a full member of the IEE (as was, they ceased to be that in 2006), IET, RAeS etc does not give you chartered status. It does not even automatically give Tech Eng or I Eng. status. If only it was so easy.

IET (IEE merged with IIT to form IET) Full membership requirements are here:
https://www.theiet.org/membership/become-a-member/miet-and-tmiet-membership/criteria-for-iet-membership-miet/

You just need a degree with no experience to become a MIET. No competence or commitment required. If you don't have qulifications you can still join with experience and a "supporter".

CEng requirements are here:
http://www.theiet.org/career/professional-registration/chartered-engineer/

I don't know about the IET but most RAeS members are not Chartered Engneers or even Incorporated Engineers.

Robert G8RPI .

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Posted by Martin Kyte on 26/11/2020 11:17:55:

To go back to the original post. Could someone be an engineer without a degree or memebership of an engineering institute?

Clearly Engineering and Engineers predate Universities and Engineering Institutes so engineers can have an independent existance without these organisations. I cite Archemedes as an example of an engineer and Roman aquaducts as engineering. Therefor the answer to the original question is yes.

Can Engineers be artists too, yes.

Can Engineers have people skills , yes.

Can you be a theoritician and make things, yes.

Can you be good at making things and also do the maths, yes.

regards Martin

Yes.

I was a Licenced Aircrbaft Maintence Engineer without a degree or any membership. Awarded by the Civil Aviation Authority and in those days when we had our own regulations only a LAE could sign a certificate of release to service for an aircraft. It needed age, training, experience and several exams, oral, written and multi-choice. Not multi-guess, pass mark was 70% and if you got a question wrong it was minus 0.5% so minimum score was -50%. This is part of the culture, if you don't know, don't guess because lives are at stake.

Robert G8RPI.

[Jon LawesParticipant @jonlawes51698]

I was MRAeS for a few years, just needed some evidence that I'd been involved in flight testing. At the time I was managing the Accident Data Recorder replay department and my manager thought it would be a good thing to add to my resume.

[Henry ArtistParticipant @henryartist43508]

A word that has fallen somewhat from popular use in recent years is "artisan" and when it does get mentioned it is usually in the context of rural or pastoral handicrafts.

However, an artisan is a skilled craft worker who makes or creates material objects partly or entirely by hand.

For the purpose of this discussion an artisan could be, for example, a blacksmith, watchmaker, jeweller, locksmith, gunsmith, stonemason, or even a Model Engineer.

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

Henry, indeed, a hands on engineer whichever trade/following taken. The quiet man who will take the item and re-furbish it or repair and return and in many cases better than new.

It takes many years to reach that Artisan status and I find they are not just an engineer but have deeper intersts in many things and through that experience gain knowledge etc.

[CirclipParticipant @circlip]

My mantra always was, "Call me what you want, just pay me my worth and this on a sliding upward scale when you recognise my value"

Too many have been paid on the strength of paper qualifications. In the past, had to teach too many Chief Draftsmen, Production Ingineers and Works "Managers" how many beans make five.

Regards Ian

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Even 53 years ago, job ‘status’ and remuneration began with qualifications at my first place of work.

I started working life as a ‘Scientific Assistant’, and ‘Experimental Officer’ was the next rank up the scale, IIRC.

I started on the bottom rung but was selected, from the intake, to work for the site senior chemist. After eventually shifting across to quality control I soon found myself repeating analyses ‘botched’ by experimental officers getting paid at least half as much again as I was. While it boosted my ego, it didn’t improve the state of my pocket/wallet.

When I handed in my notice, after a little over two years, I was summoned for interview by just about every level of management – including the top dog – to change my mind. Being young, I stuck with my decision and left. To this day I’m not sure I made the right decision back in 1969…BSc, LRIC, HNC … none of which have particularly been of use in my years of employment.

At one juncture, I was classed as a Commissioning Engineer but was the chemist, among the group of five.

That lot means I don’t call myself an Engineer. I just did what I did, and now do what I do.

I know a Squadron Leader who is now an artist. Not a great deal of connection between flying planes and painting pictures – apart from many of his pics are of planes… I also like it that Doctors drop that tag and become plain ’Mr’ when they become consultants. It’s only a name and doesn’t necessarily mean any more than indicating a level of learning.

[Kiwi BlokeParticipant @kiwibloke62605]

Posted by not done it yet on 27/11/2020 09:29:46:

…

I also like it that Doctors drop that tag and become plain ’Mr’ when they become consultants. It’s only a name and doesn’t necessarily mean any more than indicating a level of learning.

…

In fact, the title 'Doctor', applied to the medical profession, is only a courtesy title, unless a doctorate, eg PhD, has been obtained. Medical consultants, of all specialties except surgical specialties, retain the courtesy title 'Doctor', but surgeons revert to their barber-surgeon roots as 'Mr' – or 'Miss' – when fully surgically qualified, but before occupying a post as a consultant.

Edited By Kiwi Bloke on 27/11/2020 10:13:23

[Graham StoppaniParticipant @grahamstoppani46499]

I am not an an Engineer in an sense of the word (even though I have a couple of computing degrees). However, I do like making and fixing things. From hence forth I shall refer to myself an artificer.

My dad was an artificer in the navy, however, I would like to think of myself as an artificer in the way Terry Pratchett described them. They worked in their various small workshops in the Street of Cunning Artificers and even had a Guild of Artificers – entrance criteria not known. The greatest of them was Leonard of Quirm but I am unfortunately more of a "Bloody Stupid" Johnson.

As an etymological aside, the words engineer and artificer both have their origins in the 14th century. An engineer coming via French from the Latin ingenium skill or talent. An artificer on the other hand is "one who makes by art or skill".

[Author]

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