Unusual Rule instrument?

[Martin King 2Participant @martinking2]

Hi All,

We have just got this otherwise un-remarkablke 24" 4 fold boxwood & brass rule by TROUGHTON & SIMMS.

It came at boot sale with some other tools.

We were surpirised to find these two unusual scale when we cleaned the grime off it

GUNS Dia & SHOT Dia

The scales do not seem to make any kind of sense and there is no reference in Jane Rees Rule 'bible'

Any thoughts anyone please?

Cheers,

Martin

[Martin King 2Participant @martinking2]

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

At a guess, stick the object you wish to find the diameter of between 2 of the arms, Close on the object and read the scale to obtain the measurement.

regards Martin

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

I think the rule dates back to the time before cannon bores and cannon balls were made accurately. This was quite late into the mid 19th century.

Given that both bore and ball vary it would pay to match shot to the diameter of each gun on a ship or in a battery. Shot should be rather smaller than the bore of the gun, but loose balls won't shoot straight.

I think the 'Gun Diameter' scale is used to measure the gun bore. The 'Shot Diameter' scale uses the same graduations, but they are closer together. So you can sit down with a pile of shot and use the Shot scale to sort them to suit a particular gun: too big; too small; and close enough.

Might be collectable!

Dave

Late thought:  bore diameter may be graduated in pounds rather than inches.   Could test the idea by calculating the diameter of a 1lb cast-iron sphere to see if it matches your scale.

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 24/11/2017 11:45:19

[Jon GibbsParticipant @jongibbs59756]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 24/11/2017 11:42:00:

Late thought: bore diameter may be graduated in pounds rather than inches. Could test the idea by calculating the diameter of a 1lb cast-iron sphere to see if it matches your scale.

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 24/11/2017 11:45:19

Seems to be borne out from the scale.

Since weight will follow volume, and given that the cube root of 2 ~= 1.26, the ratio looks about right for the lines 1/2 -> 1 & 1 -> 2 & 11/2 -> 3.

Edit: Also from 1 -> 1 1/2 and 2 -> 3 will be ~1.145 which looks pretty close to me too by eye.

Jon

Edited By Jon Gibbs on 24/11/2017 13:29:00

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

If each guns diameter is a little greater than the matching shot diameter, that would suggest the appropriate ‘windage’ allowance between bore and shot to provide for easy reloading in battle.
Troughton & Simms were active 1826 to 1922. Roundshot were becoming obsolescent from the 1860s on, so the rule will probably date before this.

[Martin King 2Participant @martinking2]

Thanks guys, that helps a lot.seems to make sense! Strange that there seems to be no info in the literature about these.

I have a local collector coming to look at it tomorrow who may shed more light. Will keep you posted.

Cheers, Martin
I

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

Did you find out?

Martin

[Martin King 2Participant @martinking2]

No, the chap was a ‘no show’, perhaps later this week. It is proving difficult to get any defining answer on this item.

I will probably just fly it on EBay at the weekend and see what happens.

Cheers, Martin

[Brian HParticipant @brianh50089]

You could always contact the Royal Armouries either in London or Leeds. I'm sure they will be able to help.

Brian

[peak4Participant @peak4]

Martin, I've contacted a friend about this, but waiting to hear back; he's not on this forum, but I suspect will be familiar with the item.

Would you mind hanging fire on ebay until I hear from him.

Thanks

Bill

Edited By peak4 on 29/11/2017 20:28:58

[peak4Participant @peak4]

Martin, please check your PMs. My friends contact email address is in there.

Bill

[Martin King 2Participant @martinking2]

Hi Bill, Your friend very kindly got back to me with this:

'The gun and shot measuring tools I have come across were steel (or iron), or sometimes brass, so a boxwood one is a bit of a puzzle. It would be interesting to check the Guns and Shot diameters to find out what units they are expressed in. Most cannon were classified as the weight of the shot they fired – 3 pounder etc. – and related to an iron ball. Muzzle loading Smooth-Bored Gun bores were generally noticeably slight larger than the shot they fired – the difference known as 'windage' – to allow for ease of loading.'

Regards, Martin

[Martin King 2Participant @martinking2]

Now listed, Item number: 142608071588, lets see what happens?

Cheers, Martin

[Martin King 2Participant @martinking2]

Hi All,

Must be my week for unusual boxwood rules, a pal just dropped round with some tools for me and this was among them:

Seems to be a normal gauging rule but have never seen scales for BOUGE BOTTLES or CYLINDER BOTTLES

Again no info in Jane Ree's rule bible!

Cheers, Martin

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

Martin, your rule maybe something to do with Brewing.

Ian S C

[Sam Longley 1Participant @samlongley1]

Posted by Ian S C on 07/12/2017 12:12:12:

Martin, your rule maybe something to do with Brewing.

Ian S C

What . Are you saying that the bloke that engraved it was p.ss.d ???

Edited By Sam Longley 1 on 07/12/2017 13:05:37

[Brian GParticipant @briang]

Martin

As Ian said, it is definitely connected with brewing. Scroll down on this page for "gauging rules" **LINK**. The two scales are for vessels that either bulge (bouge bottles) or have parallel sides (cylinder bottles).

Brian

[Martin King 2Participant @martinking2]

Brian G, Many thanks for the clarification, I had looked at David Ricjes site but missed it!

Regards,Martin

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