The Greatest Mechanical invention

[Roderick JenkinsParticipant @roderickjenkins93242]

Posted by John McNamara on 17/10/2012 09:25:38:

Hi All

Brunel Born 1806 only started work within a year of Eli Whitney' death (January 1825) so I guess that gives the discovery (Or at least rediscovery and improvement of previous work) to Whitney.

John,

The Brunel in question is Mark (1769-1849). He was IK's dad. Interestingly, after leaving France he spent some time in the US before settling in England.

The real point is that these breakthrough don't tend to spring fully formed from one man's brain. They are the result of a bits of work done here and there by various people. They come together when there is a major problem that needs the solution. In the case of Brunel it was the critical lack of blocks for the rigging of naval ships. With Colt, who was really a salesman and showman rather than an engineer, it was the Mexican border wars and the US civil war needing guns.

Jared Diamond's excellent Guns, Germs and Steel expands on this theme in his history of human development.

cheers,

Rod

[Roderick JenkinsParticipant @roderickjenkins93242]

Drat, too late to edit. I meant Marc

Rod

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Posted by John McNamara on 17/10/2012 09:25:38:

Hi All

Brunel Born 1806 only started work within a year of Eli Whitney' death (January 1825) so I guess that gives the discovery (Or at least rediscovery and improvement of previous work) to Whitney.

Maudlsley overlaps a bit so there is room for conjecture there.

I have been to the Whitney museum and have seen first hand some of the jigs and fixtures he made. By modern standards pretty rough however well advanced for his time.

Cheers

John

The Brunel in question was the French engineer Marc Isambard Brunel – 1876 – 1849 born in Hacqville, Normandy. He was driven out of France during the revolution as a monarchy sympathiser during the 'Reign of Terror' but fell in love with a certain daughter of an English girl –  Sophie Kingdom while in Rouen. He went to work in the USA but emigrated back to England where he married his love Sophie and they named their son Isambard Kingdom in celebration of that love. The rest is history. It pays to check it out.

BTW unlike Whitneys efforts in no way can you describe Maudslays work as 'Pretty Rough'. I suggest you get up close to the Block Making machinery (1803) , or Maudslays screwcutting lathe and then you will appreciate precision and craftsmanship.

Best regards

Terry

Edited By Terryd on 17/10/2012 21:54:40

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Hi,

Spot the error in my previous post:

"The Brunel in question was the French engineer Marc Isambard Brunel – 1876 – 1849 born in Hacqville, Normandy."

Should of course have read:

"The Brunel in question was the French engineer Marc Isambard Brunel – 1776 – 1849 born in Hacqville, Normandy."

Regards and sorry,

Terry

[FMESParticipant @fmes]

How about the 'Differential Gear' ? first known application over 1000 BC in China and still in use today.

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

"North Pointing Chariot"

Neil

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 17/10/2012 10:21:30:

Not too far off-topic, I hope …

The new series on BBC4 "Order and Disorder" by Jim Al-Khalili, is superb.

If you missed the first part; catch it on iPlayer.

MichaelG.

Hi Michael,

thanks for the link, it was an interesting and novel way to present the theories we learnt so far back in our Engineering training. I particularly liked the slomo camera work revealing the beauty involved in a variety of processes, including the jug. Pity he didn't try to explain the use of differential calculus and the entropy equation, he passed over that somewhat – I suppose that he didn't want frighten too many people with the mathematics at which the general population are so poor in the UK. I wish that my lecturers had tried to make the subject of thermodynamics more sexy, I might have taken my studies further.

It also just goes to show that the steam engine (among other devices) was not an 'invention' but the culmination of many folks work over many years and a natural progression of development. I also liked the discussion of the Tokomak. and the guy who said that it was the work of scientists and Engineers. I remember well a quotation by an eminent professor of Engineering (I forget his name unfortunately) who said,

"A scientist will find you a new star, but it will take an Engineer to make it".

And engineers are making it in the Tokomak. It's just a pity that every time there is a new development it is always presented on TV etc as 'scientists have discovered…….', never are Engineers credited for the work. Perhaps that is why Engineering is held in such low esteem by the bulk of the population.

Thanks again

Terry

[peter walton 1Participant @peterwalton1]

I've always thought that the greatest was the invention of the screw thread, first I can think of was Archimedes and his screw used to lift water.

As the screw is just an extension of a lever you then argue that the lever is the first if not the greatest!

just my 2p worth.

peter

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

And engineers are making it in the Tokomak. It's just a pity that every time there is a new development it is always presented on TV etc as 'scientists have discovered…….', never are Engineers credited for the work. Perhaps that is why Engineering is held in such low esteem by the bulk of the population

——

That's a good point

"Scientists discover new star"

"Scientists discover this… scientists do that…"

What with?

Dedicated Engineered tools

NEW HEADLINE

"Scientists discover nothing without engineers"

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Terry,

Glad you enjoyed the programme … he is certainly one of the best "outreach" presenters, and I was delighted to see the improvement in production/graphics [presumably a new team]

By the way; I think this is the origin of your quote:

Gordon Lindsay Glegg … The Design of Design (1969)

MichaelG.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 19/10/2012 10:01:19

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 19/10/2012 10:00:42:

Terry,

Glad you enjoyed the programme … he is certainly one of the best "outreach" presenters, and I was delighted to see the improvement in production/graphics [presumably a new team]

By the way; I think this is the origin of your quote:

Gordon Lindsay Glegg … The Design of Design (1969)

MichaelG.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 19/10/2012 10:01:19

Spot on , I'm looking at it on my study bookshelf right now, well not exactly, I'm looking at my keyboard now, but you know what I mean.

Regards and thanks again,

Terry

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Posted by peter walton on 19/10/2012 09:50:51:

I've always thought that the greatest was the invention of the screw thread, first I can think of was Archimedes and his screw used to lift water.

As the screw is just an extension of a lever you then argue that the lever is the first if not the greatest!

just my 2p worth.

peter

Actually Peter that's not quite correct. The screw is an extension of the inclined plane. In effect an inclined plane wrapped around a cylinder to form the helix.

Hi Neil and Gray,

The chariot in question was used by the Emperors of ancient China in their regal processions around the country.  It was a favourite Meccano model, I believe that it was 'Model of the Month' in a Meccano Magazine, I'll look it up.

Best regards

Terry

Edited By Terryd on 19/10/2012 11:50:41

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Posted by Stub Mandrel on 18/10/2012 20:11:02:

"North Pointing Chariot"

Neil

Hi Neil,

I knew something was wrong and I had a nagging at the back of my tiny brain, It is actually a South seeking chariot. Apparently the Chinese worshipped South because the sun was at it's highest there! I have seen two explanations for it's use, one is to impress on ceremonial processions, the other is a direction finding device, essentially a compas,s used by the Chinese military on their expeditions on the steppes. They have been dated to around 2640 BC. There is one in the Science Museum apparently, but I've never seen it. It was once thought to be magnetic until the mechanism was revealed. Take your pick.

Regards

Terry

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

Hi Terry,

I understand that, if anything, it was a 'not very accurate help you follow a bearing in featureless terrain when it's cloudy chariot'

Neil

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Neil / Terry

Try this …

and this.

MichaelG.

 

P.S.

Yes, I believe he was the G. H. Lanchester.

[apologies for the multiple edits]

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 19/10/2012 22:26:22

[Michael HornerParticipant @michaelhorner54327]

Pen and paper or their derivities.

Cheers Michael.

Spell checker on! See post on Self Adulation.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Michael Horner on 20/10/2012 13:20:57:

Pen and paper or their derivities.

Cheers Michael.

Spell checker on! See post on Self Adulation.

Michael,

[quote] "Spell checker on!"

That's interesting … I thought the word was derivatives.

If the word "derivities" does exist, then please expand my vocabulary.

MichaelG.

[John McNamaraParticipant @johnmcnamara74883]

Hi All

Stephen Potter lives……

Cheers

John

Edited By John McNamara on 20/10/2012 14:44:37

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Posted by Michael Horner on 20/10/2012 13:20:57:

Pen and paper or their derivities.

Cheers Michael.

Spell checker on! See post on Self Adulation.

Hi Michael,

I trust that you mean derivatives.

Derivative means Something that is based on another source. so the derivatives of pen and paper would be something like typewriter or keyboard and printer.

I suspect that you meant forerunner which would be clay tablet and stylus, or ink and papyrus etc? Accurate and precise use of language is important, see post on self adulation

Best regards

Terry

Edited By Terryd on 20/10/2012 15:45:53

[FMESParticipant @fmes]

I should have added the link for the oldest Differential – 'South Pointing Chariot' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Pointing_Chariot, which while not being exactly 'south seeking' was used by the chinese to point to their villiage of origin when they set out on a crusade.

Saw this in the Beijing Museum some years back

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Hi Lofty,

You can embed links by attaching it to a word or phrase. When composing, highlight a phrase such a 'South Seeking Chariot' then click the 'Link' icon in the 2nd box from right, lower row of icons. This is not the best Forum software in the world .

As the Wikipedia entry says the chariot would have been set at the beginning of the journey but would have become inaccurate after a few days, I suppose due partly to rough ground and handling. However the Chinest would know that and it is possible that the chariot could be 'rebooted' by adjusting the pointer to the midday sun each day. I suspect that the Chinese did not have the concept of N and S as we conceive of it, but simply a sense of direction and used the chariot to point to the sun at midday. The chariot could then be used as a reference during the days march.

Regards

Terry

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Terry [and others],

Any thoughts on the conceptual relationship between the "South Pointing Chariot" and modern Inertial Navigation systems ?

Evolution, or Revolution ?

MichaelG.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 21/10/2012 09:27:19

[FMESParticipant @fmes]

Cheers Terry, I was wondering how the link thing worked, Much obliged.

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Hi Michael,

I would have thought revolution was more likely. How many times have we seen ancient developments which have come to a dead end and then re-emerge when the need and technology allows. It is obvious that the Chinese developed the differential mechanism but it didn't develop until it was re 'invented' when the need arose in the motor car. I see the same with the Antikythera mechanism, there was no reason that the Greeks, if they were this capable could surely have made clocks if there was a need and if they had (or could develop) the technology to make springs or other means of storing the necessary energy.

Perhaps there are universal principles which emerge as need and technology coincide to demand their development into useful devices, and this repeats itself through history in different contexts and different technologies. Thinking of this brings to mind the iPad and Android devices which use gyroscopic effects to sense movement and positiion in a tiny hand held device. Mankind is indeed ingenious.

Best regards

Terry

Edited By Terryd on 21/10/2012 13:05:23

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

Inertial navigation using the principle of a Gyro and a light beam through an aperture to a reader system, they fitted one to Land Rovers via the speedo cable and it was quite good to about 10 – 20 meters after 20Kms. Used Grid Ref. settings, off OS maps. Set the parameters and drive until both readouts were '0'. You still had to map read anyway to get the best route.

Problems with the drive cables unravelling in their casings due to the small flywheel attached to the drive over running when the vehicle slowed down quickly.

Eventually withdrawn as too 'Iffy' and unreliable mechanically.

Clive

[Author]

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