stamford show vandals

[SamsarandaParticipant @samsaranda]

Mick, refreshing to hear from someone who has inside knowledge and experience of our justice system, I might add that your thoughts directly mirror those of my son in law who is a serving sergeant in the police, he has become so frustrated that the system is gradually disintegrating that he is counting the days, literally he has a calendar made out, till he can leave with his pension. It is a sorry state for our police to be in where those with experience and knowledge are so frustrated at not being able to police effectively, no wonder our society is disintegrating.

Dave W

[vintage engineerParticipant @vintageengineer]

And you think we live in democracy?

 

Having lived in one party state countries they were a lot safer and you knew where you stood with the judiciary!

 

 

Posted by duncan webster on 21/05/2019 11:35:47:

So do you want to live in a country which is hardly a functioning democracy, and scores 4 on a scale of freedom rating (7 is worst, 1 is best). UK rates at 1, same as Germany and Netherlands, slightly higher than France which is 1.5

 

Edited By vintage engineer on 21/05/2019 16:51:02

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

It is rather fortunate that for most people it is not the fear of being caught that stops them committing a crime but the understanding that as civilised social people we do not steal or kill or damage our fellows or their property. Laws are not there to be broken if you can get away with it but to define the rules we wish to live by, correcting people who ruin the harmony of everyone else by whatever means is best should be the aim. Ideally we should put more effort into producing citizens who want to live in harmony with everyone else, we have failed if we need to correct people for exceeding our limits. Unfortunately the one bad Apple effect means good citizens can easily be sucked in to crime because we are ineffective at catching the bad Apple before the barrel is turned. Perhaps we should only be allowed to breed if we have qualified to be parents but I think living in a free society trumps that sort of thinking but we must win the argument for behaving with respect and consideration for one another, having a large number or people in prison is a poor reflection on our society.

Mike

[PlasmaParticipant @plasma]

Apparently more than 50% of men questioned said they would engage in unconaensual sex with a woman (that's rape in case you wondered) if they were guaranteed not to be caught, that is a terrifying statistic.

Also a recent experiment where expensive razor blades were sold in the street many law abiding folks were happy to buy them despite being told they were hot etc. Happy to save a few quid despite knowing they were breaking the law.

Let's face it we are basically animals and the veneer of civilisation is very thin indeed.

Dave W I had the same calendar running for the last couple of years, it comes fast tell him.

[Frances IoMParticipant @francesiom58905]

Because of my current research into the WW1 internment camps on the IoM I have been reading much of the Quaker accounts including the situation in Germany post hyperinflation in late 1920s, lack of jobs, money or even a future for many – it sounds remarkably similar to the UK – politicians cannot agree, a screaming nationalist party led by a demagogue which obtains power because the existing politicians could not agree …

[ronan walshParticipant @ronanwalsh98054]

People who say dire retribution does not work are misguided. A village idiot my father worked with decades ago, went to the Isle of Man for a holiday, when they still had the birch there. His idea of a holiday was getting as drunk as possible, causing fights, stealing/vandalising anything not nailed down, and being a general twit.

Anyhoo he went on his holiday, and within a day or two was arrested for violence in a pub. He was dragged, very quickly before a court, sentenced to so many lashes of the birch and was then taken to where ever the lashes are done. He got half the lashes, was dragged down to the port and chucked on the ferry and warned that if he set foot on the IOM again, he would get the rest.

It worked, he never dared go back there, and if he was mouthing off at work, the father would ask him if he was heading back to the IOM for a holiday anytime soon. It always shut him up.

[Harry WilkesParticipant @harrywilkes58467]

A similar story to that of Ronan I had a school friend who's elder brother had been on the wrong end of the birch on the IoM and to this day I remeber him saying " never again" !!!

H

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by ronan walsh on 21/05/2019 19:07:56:

People who say dire retribution does not work are misguided. A village idiot my father worked with decades ago, went to the Isle of Man for a holiday, when they still had the birch there. …

It worked, he never dared go back there, and if he was mouthing off at work, the father would ask him if he was heading back to the IOM for a holiday anytime soon. It always shut him up.

In response to the undocumented 'a village idiot my father worked with decades ago', I offer the well known 'Mad Frankie Fraser', known as 'The Dentist' because he removed teeth with a pair of pliers.

Despite various official thrashings Mr Fraser spent 42 years in jail and was certified criminally insane 3 times. Mad Frankie said that corporal punishment made him a big man in the gangster world – it was a badge of honour like a schlager scar. Curiously, the last man to receive the Cat O'Nine Tails in Wandsworth Prison ended up in hospital after Frankie hit him with an axe (Eric Mason, another gangster). Mad Frankie finished his criminal career with an ASBO at the age of 89.

Frankie was more afraid of being sedated at Broadmoor than physical pain.

Dave

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Those who advocate "Don't be too hard on the criminal" presumably have never been burgled, or had possessions stolen, damaged or destroyed by thieves or vandals..

If they had, it would be surprising if their perfectly natural reaction was not similar to all those who have expressed anger at this act.

What normal person actually enjoys having their families or possessions abused or injured?

Note the word Normal., as the western world usually interprets it.

It is natural to fight to defend one's territory /possessions (of whatever form ), and unchecked, abuse of someone else or their property, could well spread to ones'self. So let's prevent it, if possible, and by whatever means, show the miscreants that their actions are not acceptable to society in general. Children get sent to the naughty step, criminal adults, to prison, if the system works. Elsewhere in the world, hands get cut off, or death may even ensue for a criminal. Neither of these are acceptable in our UK society, but "different ships; different splices), because other cultures have different moral codes.

Howard

[PlasmaParticipant @plasma]

Again, to those advocating corporal or capital punishment IT DOES NOT WORK! Otherwise there would only ever have been one hanging and one birching. But there have been hundreds if not thousands to no real result. Even Albert Pierrpoint said hed wasted his time hanging criminals.

And No, I'm not a soft left leaning hippy my friends. I've been assaulted numerous times at work, had cars stolen, shed broken into and valuable equipment stolen so I'm pretty up on being a victim of crime. But I still feel our current justice system is pizzing into the wind, pardon the vernacular.

It's time to try something new, or rather something we've lost way back in time. Restorative justice is natural justice that addresses the harm done, not just punishes it. It was practised in this country before common law came into being to protect crown property.

For all the people on here advocating chopping off hands for stealing, put your hand on your heart and say you've never, ever stolen anything. To the true letter of the theft act, even finding a fiver and pocketing it or taking a few bits from work that would never be missed. Then realise you wouldn't have a hand to put on your heart under your moral code.

This subject will never be settled because there are such entrenched views on both sides. I would close the thread before someone advocates vigilante action which would constitute serious criminal conduct.

Regards mick

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

I was not advocating chopping off hands, or transport to the Antipodes for stealing a loaf of bread.

Other cultures do, or did,such things. Abhorrent to us, but "normal" in other cultures

But unless you wish to live in total anarchy, acts which a particular society sees as antisocial have to be discouraged, whether by punishment or education. (Horses for course. Some you can persuade by argument, others, sadly only by force ).

Remember the adage about walking a mile in another's shoes before criticising him too much?

If our family were starving, we would likely become thieves. I am grateful for all that we have, (especially where I started in life ) and prepared to share it with others, (The fees from my published articles are circulated among three charities, as well as any donations elsewhere  ).

But I will not be happy to have it taken by force, and without my consent. Who would?

Howard

Edited By Howard Lewis on 21/05/2019 22:14:32

[ronan walshParticipant @ronanwalsh98054]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 21/05/2019 20:20:12:

Posted by ronan walsh on 21/05/2019 19:07:56:

People who say dire retribution does not work are misguided. A village idiot my father worked with decades ago, went to the Isle of Man for a holiday, when they still had the birch there. …

It worked, he never dared go back there, and if he was mouthing off at work, the father would ask him if he was heading back to the IOM for a holiday anytime soon. It always shut him up.

In response to the undocumented 'a village idiot my father worked with decades ago', I offer the well known 'Mad Frankie Fraser', known as 'The Dentist' because he removed teeth with a pair of pliers.

Despite various official thrashings Mr Fraser spent 42 years in jail and was certified criminally insane 3 times. Mad Frankie said that corporal punishment made him a big man in the gangster world – it was a badge of honour like a schlager scar. Curiously, the last man to receive the Cat O'Nine Tails in Wandsworth Prison ended up in hospital after Frankie hit him with an axe (Eric Mason, another gangster). Mad Frankie finished his criminal career with an ASBO at the age of 89.

Frankie was more afraid of being sedated at Broadmoor than physical pain.

Dave

Yeah, but if he was in America, he would have fallen foul of the three strikes and you are out law. He would have never seen the light of day again and good riddance. How much crime was there in Russia under Stalin ? Very little, as the penalty was, after a short trial you got sent to a siberian prison where the life expantancy was three days. Who would risk petty or anyother crime, with something like that hanging over your head like the sword of Damocles ?

[CHARLES lipscombeParticipant @charleslipscombe16059]

The Singapore status is one that I greatly admire, not only because as I get older and less able to defend myself physically I value my safety more, but because of the tremendous benefits that Singaporeans enjoy. When I first visited there in 1970 you left the aircraft by a ladder and the terminal consisted of about 6 shops and a few desks. Now there are separate terminals for arrivals and departures each with 100+ aircraft bays. Much of the Singaporean population has also been re-housed in that time also. Not bad for a place that is basically only a mudflat with no natural resources.

Crime of any kind is rare by Western standards. We tend to (over?)focus on the rights of the individual rather than what is good for society as a whole. Which ignores simple facts – that order can be maintained amongst the ferals by fear, and crime will run rampant if there are no real consequences. Any Singaporean will tell you that only visitors commit crime in Singapore – the locals know that due to strong policing they will be caught and that the punishment will be severe.

Who can forget the case of the American visitor who vandalised some cars a while back. He was jailed until his flogging was due and the prospect of physical punishment scandalised the American President of the day who wrote to the Singaporean Prime Minister.expressing his abhorrence of such a punishment. The Singapore Prime Ministers reply was succinct – Lets get this straight. America does not have physical punishment and rampant crime. We have physical punishment and no crime. And you are telling us how to handle crime?

Then of course there was the only attempted aircraft hi-jacking in Singapore. There were no negotiations and 7 attempted hijackers were shot dead. No-one ever attempted to hi-jack a plane in Singapore again.

My view is that there are some people who can only be reached through their personal suffering e.g. flogging or punitive jail sentences.

While this will offend people like Neil with their highly moralistic approach, I can only say that we don't have an idealistic society where everyone listens to reason and acts for the common good. We are never likely to have one, and the efforts of the do-gooders have only led to the present high crime levels and deterioration in the lives of the bulk of the law-abiding citizen.

What a wonderful word freedom is. It can lead to the most awful deterioration in the populaces well-being yet it is eagerly sought. Can anyone name an African nation that is now "free" from colonial rule where the populace as a whole are better off than they were under colonialism?

Chas

[Paul KempParticipant @paulkemp46892]

I think to use the example of Mr Fraser to support the argument that physical punishment does not work is stretching the point a little. Sadly there will always be examples like that and I very much doubt given he was certified insane several times that the soft touch would have been any more successful! Whatever the arguments for or against hanging and similar disfiguring punishments (and I am not advocating either way) at least hanging guarantees 100% there is no chance of a re-offence by the recipient! How many cases have their been in recent history of offenders being released, supposedly assessed by professionals as rehabilitated and posing no further risk to society that have gone on the re-offend with devastating consequences for innocent individuals going about their daily business who have just been in the wrong place at the wrong time!

Using statistical data as sole evidence of the success or failure of any policy is also flawed if used in isolation who said there are lies, damn lies and statistics? Pure numerical evidence can be manipulated to convince something is so when in fact taken in conjunction with other evidence the picture is different.

If there was a true answer to the problem properly implemented there would be no problem! Fact is as highlighted by others there are many variables that contribute such as cultural belief, ethics, morals and example. As I think I said a good few post back if society instilled successfully in its peers a proper sense of right and wrong and moral conduct then the judicial system would only be needed to deal with the minority extremes like Mr Fraser and his 89 year old ASBO holding mate and in their case segregation or eradication from the masses would be the only sure fire way of preventing further mischief!

As also said by others the deterrent of respect for the law coupled with a high chance of being caught is fast disappearing in this country so expect plenty more examples like this in the future!

Paul.

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by CHARLES lipscombe on 21/05/2019 23:13:17:

What a wonderful word freedom is. It can lead to the most awful deterioration in the populaces well-being yet it is eagerly sought. Can anyone name an African nation that is now "free" from colonial rule where the populace as a whole are better off than they were under colonialism?

Chas

Congo. They are no longer getting their hands chopped off for failing to meet rubber plantation quotas.

[Blue HeelerParticipant @blueheeler]

As we are discussing law & order in the UK, what is with all the pseudo 'wannabee' fake private 'police' and enforcement 'officers' walking around the cities dresses up in paramilitary gear, flak jackets etc?

You seem to be infested with these types and also private security dressed up the same, police community support 'officers', waiting to pounce and issue fines for dropping a cigarrette butt, illegal parking, bailiffs, TV licencing.

It seems like every out of work, wannabee cop who failed the police entrance exam can don a paramilitary costume and start working for a private firm handing out fines and getting a % of the fine.

How did this all come about?

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Seems to have drifted too far off the subject with no mention of the actual event for several posts so time to lock it.

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