Seeking recommendation on new Live Steam Locomotive

[John LluchParticipant @johnlluch21161]

Hi,

I am an experienced chemical and automation engineer with a passion for model steam locomotives. After many years working in the chemical industry I have now some spare time and I am willing to build my own 5" gauge loco. It will be my first one !!

I have looked into ajreeves (http://www.ajreeves.com) and blackgates (http://www.blackgates.co.uk) web sites and designs and have send them an email asking for information on specific parts, but so far I have not received a reply of any of them.

I wonder if someone here would share their experiences with these guys or can recommend alternative sources of design drawings or commercial parts for building a locomotive from scratch. I am looking for a 4-6-2 or 4-6-0 locomotive.

Thank you very much for any help.

(sorry for my English)

[John LluchParticipant @johnlluch21161]

building a 4-6-2 locomotive

[clivelParticipant @clivel]

Hi John,

I am currently building a 5" gauge Railmotor No1 designed by Don Young as my first loco using drawings and castings from Reeves. So far I have been very happy with their service, everything I have ordered (online) has arrived promptly to me here in Canada, but their prices are not particularly cheap.

I have never ordered anything from Blackgates so I am not able to comment first hand, but they have been in business for many years, they are also the sole supplier of castings for the very popular Sweet Pea loco, so I would assume that there are no problems with their service either.

For a first loco you may want to consider building an engine that has been described in a construction series. This was one of the reasons for me choosing the Railmotor, the construction series was published in Model Engineer between 1968 and 1969.

Some examples of completed Railmotors can be found on the Station Road Steam site here, here and here. Actually the Station Road Steam archive is a very useful place to browse when trying to decide which loco you would like to build.

Clive

[old AlParticipant @oldal]

I have had many enquiries that sound similar to yours for the castings I manage. I spend many hours discussing various options and other things about the build, castings and other areas of interest that the builder thinks is needed. Very few of these actually transform into real sales. One recent exchange of about 20 emails each way only translated into a sale of a smokebox door. The suppliers you have mentioned, probably don't have the time to do this on the scale they deal with.

I have used both suppliers and have found them both very quick on getting things in the post recently.

You need to identify what you want to build first and then start looking to what the suppliers have to support that model.

[EnnechParticipant @ennech]

Hi John,

Have a look here

https://www.facebook.com/groups/247758978746024/

Eric

[IDPParticipant @idp]

John,

For me it very much depends on your skill and confidence levels not to mention the equipment and tooling available. You may well have the where withal to build a chassis but may hesitate regarding the boiler.. Are there any clubs local who might offer advice.

Have a look at Polly Engineering, I've never built any of their kits but am building one of their 7 1/4" locos from drawings and as a customer I'm satisfied.

Regards,

IDP

[julian atkinsParticipant @julianatkins58923]

hi john,

any such query will get a huge range of answers and differences of opinion. some jump in at the deep end building as their first loco something complex and detailed, others build a 'simple' small loco to cut their teeth on so to speak.

you need to choose something that you want to build and will keep the enthusiasm going over what is many years work.

a few starting points might help. a piston valve loco is generally much harder to make successfully than a slide valve loco, and i always suggest that newcomers consider the boiler if they are going to build it themselves – a tapered barrel belpaire firebox being far more complicated than an ordinary parallel barrel and round top firebox. avoid anything with a combustion chamber on a first attempt at boiler making.

the more cylinders ie 3 or 4 as opposed to 2 the more complex and work involved, plus some of the cylinder castings with cored passages are extremely expensive and don young's DONCASTER 5"g LNER pacific has these features plus no rear covers making the machining of the blocks quite tricky for the first timer (plus a slightly tapered barrel and combustion chamber boiler).

a loco that has a construction series is also an advantage.

some of the most popular designs are not very good and have a number of serious well known problems (eg LBSC's SPEEDY, of which by 1980 Reeves had sold over 3,000 sets of castings).

if you want to build a loco to use regularly then weight and length of tender might also be considerations and whether your local club track is suitable (my old club's track was ok for a 5"g Brit -just, but not a 5"g EVENING STAR 9F). if you havent driven a miniature loco before with a long tender than perhaps now is the time to try one out at your local club – many dont mind leaning over a long tender to drive and fire, but many find this uncomfortable for any length of time.

perhaps the best approach is to decide what you fancy building then ask whether that particular design has any known problems and whether it can be made on the machinery you have.

cheers,

julian

[John LluchParticipant @johnlluch21161]

Thank you all for the useful information. It is very appreciated.. The more I look into and learn about this hobby the more I realise this is serious stuff. This is indeed getting more challenging than what I initially anticipated, but this is not discouraging me but quite the contrary!.

Where I am (Catalonia) is very rare to see a working model steam locomotive, there is however at least one model steaming club I am aware of near Barcelona **LINK**. I guess the first thing I need to do is to contact them. I wonder if someone on this forum have ever met them.

Eventually, next year I will move to a village about 100Km north of Barcelona where a small model rail circuit covering 5" and 7.5" gauges is available, so I can't wait to eventually test a steam loco made by me in the comfort of a very near location.

About my practical skills I must admit that I have no self experience on using tooling machinery, but I have been in the chemical industry designing industrial reactors, heat exchangers and so on -that was at the times when no CAD software was used/available though- so I am confident that I at least understand well all the concepts involved in the building of a steam loco and I also know people on the chemical and mechanical equipment industry who can help me where I do not reach.

My goal would be to build a relatively big loco with tender, such as the "Britannia", "Duchess Of Hamilton", "Galatea" or the "Black Five" from Blackgates, Though I do not understand why Drawings are not supplied for the latter (?).

I do not want to get to a very detailed model but to a nicely working one. Or in other words I am more motivated to get right the functional aspects of it than the visual or aesthetic ones. For example I will be happy to replace allow bearings by small roller bearings if this has sense on some sections, or I may try to design my own boiler in stainless steel and fire it with butane or propane instead of coal to avoid sulphur related problems.

What *big* loco would you recommend (5" gauge) that would not have intrinsic design problems and which design is flexible enough to allow for some custom modifications?

Thanks.

John

[John BaguleyParticipant @johnbaguley78655]

Hi John,

As Julian says, choose a loco that you actually want to build. If not, you'll soon lose interest. My philosophy is that a 4-6-0 is no more complicated than an 0-4-0, it's just got more bits to make and will take longer! You can get a lot of parts such as frames laser or water jet cut which will save a lot of time.

Britannia and Don Young's Black Five are both good designs and many have been built. The Duchess by Michael Breeze is also a good design but it's a big loco with a lot of work. The boiler is quite complicated. Galatea is horrendously complicated as it is based on works drawings and will take a long time to build. It's not a design for the faint hearted.

Blackgates don't sell the B5 drawings as Reeves have the copyright on the Don Young designs but anyone can sell castings as they are not copyrighted.

John

[julian atkinsParticipant @julianatkins58923]

hi john,

the reason Blackgates dont do drawings for Don Young's BLACK 5 is because Reeves hold the copyright.

forget making a boiler in stainless, and if you fire it with anything else other than coal you might as well fit a battery and electric motor inside instead as half the fun of these things in my opinion is operating them as per fullsize.

all the designs you have mentioned have long tenders and quite complicated boilers and piston valve cylinders.

if you buy a commercial copper boiler then my suggestion would be the slide valve version of martin evans' TORQUAY MANOR which is a very well proven design.

cheers,

julian

[old AlParticipant @oldal]

My club had an optician build a B1 and a plumber build a Britannia, both 5". As an apprenticed engineer, all I have finished are little engines. It really is the motivation to complete what you have started.

Also, the bigger engines need a lot of thought to move them. Its a decision that you have to work out at a very early stage or you will be very disappointed.

I like working with Don Young drawings and my choice might be his Black Five, but you will have to find the supplier that does the drawings, I think its only Reeves. But remember also. Its a black loco and you might want a pretty coloured one

[John LluchParticipant @johnlluch21161]

Hi @john, thanks for letting me know that at least some of the 4-6-0 locos are no more complicated than an 0-4-0, but just more work. That's good to know. I'd rather be spending more time on a bigger loco than supposedly get a less compelling design finished earlier. I also appreciate your comments on Galatea as from the Blackgates site I got just the opposite feeling. I will then possibly look to build the Britannia or the Black Five as you suggest.

@julian, thanks for you insightful comments. I suppose every one has his motivations, mine is on the operational aspects of the steam locomotive, rather than running or riding the locomotive alone. I've been doing a lot of process automation using logic controllers in the not so distant past. So working on things such as optimising fuel/water consumption, or power, or locomotive speed is what I envision that I will enjoy the most. For instance, a gas fired boiler should allow for a regulation of the applied combustion power depending on locomotive load or boiler pressure in order to minimise steam (i.e. water) loss through the relief valve. Also, I may want to make arrangements on the loco to let this adjust automatically. To my understanding this particular thing is hardly achievable if the engine is coal fired, no?. And Ok, I know everything on the steam technology is already invented, but who cares?

Please, can you clarify what is the issue with stainless steel boilers on non-coal fired engines? I assume one problem is sulphur corrosion caused by coal, another can be the presence of chloride in water, but both can be avoided. Steel has a poorer thermal transfer ratio than coper, but this can be compensated by making it thinner while still maintaining or improving overall strength. Other than that steel is a much stronger, durable and easy to clean material. Virtually everything in the chemical industry is made of stainless steel, so why not use it on miniature locomotives? Has this been tried?

@old al. Yes, I've been thinking on the issues related with carrying a heavy and long locomotive. I assume a 4-6-0 5" loco can weight about 100Kg or so. To be honest I would go for a 2.5" locomotive if it wasn't that I would have no track to run it. But then a smaller 0-4-0 loco isn't as compelling to me. The circuit I eventually will be using the most, specially for testing, will be just at a mere 300 meters from my garage. The track has a special arrangement to load locos on the ground level from a lowered back. Well, I suppose this is common elsewhere, but I mean I should be able to load the loco from my garage to a van using a pulley and then from the van to the track, at least initially.

Hey, just to know. What is the issue with Black Five being black. Can't she be painted on a brighter colour, or was that meant to be sarcastic ?

Thanks.

[old AlParticipant @oldal]

I like pretty colours on my locos. but, I painted the club loco black last year and it looked really good, it still does. Black is black, but green comes in so many shades.

Talk to your local boiler inspector about boiler material, he is unlikely to like something not extensively tested in model engineering circles. We have health and safety in our hobby to help us along (Sarcasm again).

Also, be wary of our postal costs from England, we know how to charge. Think of having a holiday over here and collecting it all, whatever you decide

[clivelParticipant @clivel]

Starting in 2001, Model Engineer ran a construction series by Neville Evans describing the Highland Railway Jones 4-6-0 and Loch 4-4-0 Locomotives.

They look to be relatively straight forward to build, I was considering the 4-4-0 Loch before scaling down my ambitions to the Railmotor, and the prototypes were much more colourful than the Black Five if you want to stick to prototypical colours. To my mind it would seem a pity to go to all the effort of building a scale model and then to not paint it in colours that at least bear a passing similarity to the original.

Castings and drawings for these locos are available from Polly Model Engineering. A photo of the full size 4-6-0 may be seen here, and here is a video of a 5" Gauge 4-4-0

[John LluchParticipant @johnlluch21161]

Hi @Al, Thanks again. I am not English native, you know. So don't take me wrong, I like the way English natives tend to make use of the language features and richness to alter the meaning of sentences in subtle ways, but it's just impossible for a non-native to catch it all. I use a lot of sarcasm on my own language, but I just do not attempt to do the same on English for obvious reasons (safety, again)

Eventually I will stay in London for several days with my wife and children starting tomorrow, but I am taking a flight and had no previous arrangements to visit a locos provider. I first need to choose which loco to build and start by ordering design drawings. This should give me a closer understanding of what I need to do or order next.

One difficulty I will have is having to deal with Imperial units, I am not used to them so I hardly have a notion of how big or small a part is until I converted into say millimetres. I just computed some measures of a Britannia 5" (or 127mm) locomotive and got impressed about how big the wheels are. I suppose this (my) issue is unavoidable on this field, so ultimately it is just a matter of writing down all measures in millimetres on a copy of the drawings.

Hi @clivel, Yes, I suppose it is always better to stick with original colours. Nice video and loco !! and thanks for the info.

So far i am very pleased of all the warmth I am receiving from you all who have been already in the hobby for possibly years.

John.

[OuBallieParticipant @ouballie]

John,

You are about to start a hobby that is going to keep you occupied for the rest of your life.

The first time I visited the now destroyed Johannedburg Live Steam Club track, in the early '70s, and caught my first wiff (smell) of the steam, oil and smoke mixture coming out the locomotive chimneys, that was it!

It was 'Hook line and sinker' from that day.

If you get the opportunity PLEASE do try and visit a club before you make that momentous decision on what loco to built, as it could save many a heartache later on.

The last thing you want is to find out too late that the loco is eiter too big or too complicated.

You, however, could very well be one of those 'naturals' who take to Model Engineering with ease, as I found when running my emporium, where a Professor of Law at Wits produced the most amazing stationary engines.

Much good advise has already been given, and no doubt mu h more ro follow.

If you want to experiment with loco efficiency, then consider buying the book 'The Red Devil' by Davis Wardale. It covers the tests and modifications done on a full size SAR locomotive to improve performance. Fascinating reading and something I thought of doing on a miniature, but life intervened.

Welcome to the most absorbing hobby there is.

Geoff – Fully recovered from that 0300h trip to collect 'her indoors' last week.

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Posted by John Lluch on 02/09/2014 13:01:17:

Eventually, next year I will move to a village about 100Km north of Barcelona where a small model rail circuit covering 5" and 7.5" gauges is available, so I can't wait to eventually test a steam loco made by me in the comfort of a very near location

Would that be somewhere near Figueres? I'm about another 60 km north of there. I'd be interested to know where the track near you is.

"One difficulty I will have is having to deal with Imperial units, I am not used to them so I hardly have a notion of how big or small a part is until I converted into say millimetres."

It should soon become second nature but if you fit your lathe and mill with digital readouts it isn't a problem.  Digital calipers are a godsend as well.  For example if you want to turn something down to 1 in. diameter, just set your caliper to 1 in., zero it, switch it to mm reading, and measure the workpiece.  It will then tell you exactly how many mm to take off.

Russell

Edited By Russell Eberhardt on 03/09/2014 10:04:32

[John Andrews 2Participant @johnandrews2]

Hi John,

I'm calling from Melbourne, Australia. I would strongly urge you to visit several clubs while in the UK, and check out what is running there. You will find places and dates in "Model Engineer" magazine, or perhaps on this website.

I started in this hobby after retiring in 1998, and it has kept me busy ever since.

If you intend to build your own boiler, I suggest you get copies of the Australian Codes for Model Boiler Making. They are available from "Australian Model Engineer" website, at about AUD $25.00 each. Recently produced is one for DUPLEX stainless. This is the only acceptable type of stainless steel usable in boilers. I would though recommend copper. I have built two boilers since retirement. One for an 0-4-0, the other for a 2-8-0. Not too difficult, just time consuming. The Boiler codes give a number of useful hints as well as specifications.

Best of luck

John A

[julian atkinsParticipant @julianatkins58923]

hi john,

it is perfectly possible to approach the operation of miniature steam locomotives from an efficiency point of view – i try to do this, and in the UK we have an annual very popular event called IMLEC hosted by ME magazine and one of the clubs, where efficiency of the loco (and driving skill) is tested.

just as in fullsize miniature locomotives can be operated efficiently if well designed and handled and fired. for some of us this is a major part of the fun of building miniature locos and operating them for the public on our club tracks.

i can only tell you what is acceptable in the UK so far as boilers are concerned, but stainless steel miniature loco boilers are NOT acceptable in UK clubs. what you operate privately in your own garden etc is another matter.

in 5"g there are very few steel boilers. any of the designs you have mentioned that you fancy building do not lend themselves to steel boilers and in any event if you want insurance for them you will be faced with enormous difficulties and a coded welder to make it, and need the correct grade steel with certificates, welded test pieces, complete design calculations, and thorough inspection of all joints as construction progresses. and when completed your BRITANNIA or whatever loco you will build will have a much shorter boiler life than a proper silver soldered copper boiler plus wont steam as well! the loco will also have a considerably reduced value.

cheers,

julian

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Posted by julian atkins on 03/09/2014 11:10:55:

in 5"g there are very few steel boilers.

That's certainly true for the UK but here in France stainless steel boilers are the norm and copper is the exception. I would imagine that Spain would be similar but as has been suggested he should contact a club in Spain.

There is no problem getting insurance for an engine with a stainless steel boiler here. The national association, the CAV, include it with their annual subscription although of course the boiler has to be registered with them.

It strikes me that the UK is rather backward regarding boiler requirements if stainless steel is not accepted.

Russell.

[John LluchParticipant @johnlluch21161]

Thanks for all your comments. When I come back home I will contact a steaming club I am aware of near Barcelona. @Russell, the village I am going to move is Fornells de la Selva. This is about 40 or so km south of Figueres.

About stainless steel boilers it is not that I dislike copper, it is just a material I am very used to because of my adquired skills on the chemical industry. Please, can you point me to some miniature loco parts provider in France or Germany? I do speak French and the country is just next door, to say, so approaching them would be easy.

@Julian, I fully understand why steel may be less efficient than coper, but leaving appart official certification issues I would like to understand as well why it would be less durable or valuable. I will go to copper once I understand it, no problem, but its just I worked A LOT with stainless steel in the past, and I used it extensively in heat exchangers.

@John, I will look at your pointers, thank you

[pcb1962Participant @pcb1962]

Posted by John Lluch on 02/09/2014 15:59:45:

And Ok, I know everything on the steam technology is already invented, but who cares?

That is far, far, far from being the case.

As well as the work of David Wardale as suggested elsewhere in this thread, look into the work of Andre Chapelon and Livio Dante Porta, in particular the proposals Porta made to the builders of Tornado which were mostly not adopted due to time and cost constraints but would have resulted in a step change in engine performance.

Here's a good place to start: http://5at.co.uk/

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Posted by John Lluch on 04/09/2014 08:34:28:

Please, can you point me to some miniature loco parts provider in France or Germany? I do speak French and the country is just next door, to say, so approaching them would be easy.

There are a few suppliers in France:

There is Le Hobby Steam in Biarritz and Atelier Vaporiste near Clermont Ferand but I find it cheaper to buy castings and fittings by mail order from England. The castings for the Simplex I'm building (when time permits) came from Blackgates.

Russell

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

Hi John well you have had a lot of advice from some really excellent engineers.

I have found Julian has given me very sound advice every time i have asked him.

I am a complete Novice i first bought a complete Loco that was total rubbish.

I did not find out till i joined a club to see i had wasted £1400 on a PV Baker.

I have since totally rebuilt her with the help of my local Club.

After rebuilding this one i thought if i could perhaps Build one myself so understand more of loco and know what i had.

Like you its a very hard decision to make i wanted to Build a good work horse that was a good workhorse.

I looked at so many i liked the Speedy as a Guy who works on Big loco at Bridgnorth ex railway guy built his he is a professional engineer pulls well had 30 people on the Back and pulled very well.

Problem was Boiler is Tapered and difficult to make or very expensive to buy.

I also wanted a Tender engine as don't like side tanks.

So after seeing one on web site for North Staffs club at Newcastle under Lyme i decided to build one very similar.

So i am building a super simplex the parts are easy to come by the super Simplex does not have a lot of the teething problems of the standard simplex.

I have seen one pulling 23 people behind with no Problem it has a 5 inch boiler i am told easy to make out of Copper tube 19 inch long .

The Parts are readily available as most parts from standard simplex fit as only boiler Frames and Cylinders deferent .

You can get all casting from Black gates Reeves also many do Lazar frames and fitting you can buy just about everything if you have problems making from scratch.

I had my Lazar frames with Buffer beams found so easy to assemble i had my wheels from Black gates far cheaper part's from them.

I have within a few weeks got almost a running Chassis from a complete Novice with not very many good Machines.

I hope by the end of the week to Finnish fitting Axle boxes two to go wheels and axles already to fit id with water pump crank and Rod already to Fit in.

You can chose if you want a tender or not easy changes to have one so many to choose from.

I chose one not so large as after driving a few at my Club found it uncomfortable to keep stretching over when running for long time on open Days.

I hope this might help in you search good look and most of all ENJOY.

Ron

[John LluchParticipant @johnlluch21161]

Hi all. Thanks for all your comments and useful information. I am now home so I just attempted to meet a local steam club as suggested earlier, but so far they haven't replied. I have also ordered "Design Procedures For Walschaerts & Stephensons Valve Gears – By D. L. Ashton" and "The Model Steam Locomotive: A Complete Treatise on Design and Construction – by Martin Evans". The later should arrive on Thursday according to Amazon.

After looking further on what can be done and considering my existing background, I figured out that I'd like to make changes to existing designs or even create something from scratch.

As mentioned earlier I have looked at several 4-6-0 or 4-6-2 designs and drawings offered by ajreves and blackgates, however I am still struggling on what to order. The "Britannia" looks nice, but since I would rather *try* to build something from my own design (at least partly) I need to start with some existing drawings that are not over complicated. For example I do not want at this time a 3 or 4 cylinders loco, but just a two cylinders one. Also I noticed that the Britannia has slightly inclined cylinders (I meant not totally horizontal), which also makes things more complicated if I want to change some dimension.

I am aware that I am probably asking too trivial and not very focused questions, but ultimately, my question is: What 4-6-x loco would be easier to build, having less parts, simple design, and clear and clean drawings?

Thanks in advance.

John.

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