Raglan training lathe value?

[RainbowsParticipant @rainbows]

Evening all

Anyone have advice on what a fair price for a Raglan Loughborough Training Lathe is?

I was thinking that with their apparent rigidity but lack of change gears they would make a good base for a CNC conversion.

The ones currently on ebay are about £650, which I think is a bit pricey. Can anyone comment on what a reasonable price is?

[RainbowsParticipant @rainbows]

[Chris TriceParticipant @christrice43267]

There's a 3 phase one on there at the moment which is BIN £100.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

The fact it does not have a lead screw or drive shaft would put most people off it for CNC conversion as you can't just put a stepper onto the screw/shaft. Would need a lot of work to fit a screw

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by JasonB on 05/01/2019 07:55:20:

The fact it does not have a lead screw or drive shaft would put most people off it for CNC conversion as you can't just put a stepper onto the screw/shaft. Would need a lot of work to fit a screw

.

That may be Rainbows' spark of genius

If he intends to fit ballscrews, why not start from scratch ?

MichaelG.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I was more pointing out that it is not just change gears that it is lacking as rainbows said. However if you have an existing screw then you also have the mountings and somewhere to fit the nut when you change to ball screws, a lot easier than trying to machine a flat surfaces on the side of the bed casting and finding somewhere on the apron to fit the nut.

With a 600rpm spindle speed there will also be quite a bit of work needed on the drive train unless he intends to overspeed a motor by at least 4 or 5 times to get CNC suitable speeds, doubt those flat belts are really upto that.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Fair comment, Jason … But at £100 it seems like a very reasonably priced 'part-machined kit'

MichaelG.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 05/01/2019 08:28:23:

Fair comment, Jason … But at £100 it seems like a very reasonably priced 'part-machined kit'

MichaelG.

Like with any 70year old lathe it's only reasonable if the lathe is in reasonable condition, if the Timkin bearings are shot or the flat bed worn it is not such a good buy.

Another thing is the short "gap" . If converting to CNC you are likely to do away with the topslide and more likely to be using collets, looks to me that you may need a lot of tool overhang to reach work in a finger collet as you can't get the saddle all the way to the head without it overhanging the gap or hitting your ball screw bracket.

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

With no leadscrew I would avoid it at any price

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

A simple check on epay might have revealed this recent Raglan offering.

**LINK**

The flagship of the Raglan range, but unfortunately with no screw cutting/power feed equipment whatsoever. Not even any guts in the apron other than hand fed long travel, either, I suspect.  Was on for weeks at £650, clearly he was looking for a mug to buy it.

OK, rather larger than the training lathe, but clearly likely more useful for conversion to something. Or just spares.

Possibly the vendor just gave up or sold it outside epay. Certainly not worth £300 in my book, unless someone had a damaged donor lathe to supply the missing parts.

Might be worth contacting to find out, if anyone wanted some good spare parts.

Edited By not done it yet on 05/01/2019 12:26:09

[Chris TriceParticipant @christrice43267]

There must be other lathes out there suitable for conversion. Does an old Raglan offer an advantage over a younger less worn lathe?

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Those training lathes were often well looked after (at least by the initial purchasers), not worn much at all and built like the proverbial brick bog! Biggest risk would be crashes into the chuck – but reduced risk as there was no power feed.

They should be cheap – some have made £250, surprisingly. They were often bought, second hand, as a ‘roughing’ lathe before finishing items on a better machine. Spindle bearings are obsolete (but not unobtainable) and are very long wearing if the end float and lube is correct.

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

If sufficiently cheap and if you can live with the short 15" between centres the Loughborough is probably a decent basis for home brew CNC. Bed wear is unlikely to be an issue as such machines usually did very little work in their natural habitat, schools. If you use a collet chuck the gap is not an issue as the collet chuck projection will cover it. I believe the Loughborough uses the same bolt on steel bar bed system as the other Raglan machines so if the gap were a problem it could relatively easily be filled and extended bars, or linear guides if feeling ambitious, fitted. Careful use of metal loaded filler should take care of any alignment issues.

Poly-Vee substitution or conversion of the flat belt pulleys will take care of the power transmission issues. I'd use a VFD controlled motor with a two speed belt final drive selected via electromagnetic clutches on the countershaft. A bit of quality time and low cunning applied to scrapyard sourced car air conditioning pump pulleys ought to do the job without breaking the bank.

I'd put the ball screw straight down the middle with suitable telescoping covers. Relatively short travel makes this feasible without bits sticking out the end.

For me the main issues would be the weak spindle and lightweight cross slide ways. Raglan spindles have fairly thin walls and are known to be relatively easily bent if the machine is crashed. Cross-slide ways aren't massive given the size of the machine. Not only the most likely point for wear but also restrictive when it comes to fitting a ball screw. Were I to do the job I'd take a serious look at junking the whole saddle and fitting a heftier plate top device with either linear guides or Igus plain bearing ways for a plate style cross slide.

Handwaving costing suggests its a £500 project to get something that works well enough to be worth the effort. i'd probably spend approaching £1,000 and expect something that works to pretty much commercial standards.

Then there is the control issue. Mess around with Linux / Mach et al, buy a basic all-in one unit from Alibaba or proper Fanuc clone also from Alibaba. Not insignificant extra cost.

But how much will a small CNC machine is decently working order with an adequately modern control cost ….

Clive

[RainbowsParticipant @rainbows]

Have my eye on that £100 one, alas it is far up in scotland and couriers don't seem to like that.

As mentioned I was thinking that it I am buying my own ballscrew it doesn't matter too much whether it already had one. Instead of machining flats I was thinking of trying to get a plate that would be adjusted to flatness by bolting it to the front with adjusting jack screws.

Was also thinking that as training lathes they would have little mileage for their age.

Didn't consider that the drive system would need a full overhaul which is a good point. If the bearings are also a non standard part that makes me nervous.

The small size I was considering as a possible benefit actually in my crowded garage. Minilathe footprint but beefier.

Might simply continue with the plan of converting a 7×14 minilathe.

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

Might simply continue with the plan of converting a 7×14 minilathe

Would be a heck of a lot easier for the bits or to sell on if you part company

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Rainbows on 05/01/2019 18:42:08:

Have my eye on that £100 one

[ … ]

As mentioned I was thinking that it I am buying my own ballscrew it doesn't matter too much whether it already had one.

[ … ]

The small size I was considering as a possible benefit actually in my crowded garage. Minilathe footprint but beefier.

.

All good reasons, in my opinion … 'though others clearly disagree.

MichaelG.

[Oily RagParticipant @oilyrag]

Hi Rainbows,

Late to this discussion but in defence of the Raglan Loughborough I have to say that they all came (as far as I know) with a flat machined along the front bed face below the front way which accepted the saddle rack. I have a nice example which was given to me as it was being scrapped out from a school. It came with a capstan attachment so the bed was unworn – for some reason it did not have a cutoff slide, I know not why! The capstan attachment I use on my LJ MkII when ever I need it. The rest of the machine was parked up in a corner of my shed awaiting some inspiration as to what I was going to do with it.

I thought about a CNC conversion and also about a 'swinging bed' cam grinder. The former would have used a stepper driving the longitudinal traverse hand wheel (using the bed mounted rack and positioned by a DRO scale) the cross slide (from my Raglan 'spares&#39 would have been driven by its leadscrew via a stepper and positioned by reference again to a DRO scale.

However I fancied converting it to the latter 'swing bed' cam grinder as a more challenging concept.

As has been said previously they are built solidly, the 'Boro does not suffer from the LJ problems of a 'weak' spindle (i.e bowed) which is generally caused by the bull gear self engaging by the seizure of the drop gears riding on the bull gear eccentric shaft (or being maliciously engaged by school delinquents!) as the 'Boro does not have a back gear assembly. The spindle bearings are Timken taper rollers and although the C5 grades are almost impossible to find they do exist – at a price! but standard grades are still available at around £30 a set. The lack of the bull gear assembly also results in the 'Boro spindle being shorter than its equivalent in the Little John. One oddity is the spindle bearings are grease packed – if the machine has stood for anytime expect the grease to have 'caked' solid and the bearings to need re-packing.

They usually come with a nice heavy gauge metal stand, due to the underhung motor system, and the flat belts for the 3 speeds result in a smooth power transition. With a 3 phase motor and a VFD speed control is easily achieved (although you may wish to rig up a separate motor cooling blower for use with extended slow speeds)

They are generally unloved machines which have a good pedigree. I am torn at the end of the day between modifying mine or just returning it to its original condition – with a capstan and a 'cut off' slide and possible a bar feed system. I would advise anyone to grab one if they see one advertised at the 'right price (£150 – £250?) as they are very rewarding machines, the only downside maybe the shears are as cast, unlike the 'bolt on' Little John and 5" Raglans, but they can be reclaimed if worn fairly easily.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

The WaterWorks Museum in Hereford have a Loughborough. I have used it a few times, and yes, I do miss the power feeds, (That's just me! ) but it is still good machine. It is used regularly by the other volunteers, so does not get the care and attention of a single user machine..

With a freshly sharpened Tangential Tool, it will take take 0.0005" cuts on steel with it, so it can't be so bad a machine. In truth, I prefer it to the Colchester on the other side of the shop!

Within its limitations it is a very useable small machine. But that is one example, others may have been abused. Caveat emptor!

Howard

[norman valentineParticipant @normanvalentine78682]

I use a loughborough as my everyday machine. I typically take 20thou(.5mm) cuts with no problems. Great lathe, cheap to buy, what is to ask for more?

[HollowpointParticipant @hollowpoint]

The Loughborough was my first lathe! If you can live without screw cutting it's an absolutely brilliant little lathe. It's very rigid and the build quality is excellent. It has good spindle capacity and they are cheap! When you consider the other crap in the same price bracket it's a steal.

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Posted by Hollowpoint on 21/10/2019 10:03:33:

The Loughborough was my first lathe! If you can live without screw cutting it's an absolutely brilliant little lathe. It's very rigid and the build quality is excellent. It has good spindle capacity and they are cheap! When you consider the other crap in the same price bracket it's a steal.

Agreed, but not really in the price bracket indicated by the OP. One can buy a good 5” for that sort of money!

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Posted by Hollowpoint on 21/10/2019 10:03:33:

The Loughborough was my first lathe! If you can live without screw cutting it's an absolutely brilliant little lathe. It's very rigid and the build quality is excellent. It has good spindle capacity and they are cheap! When you consider the other crap in the same price bracket it's a steal.

Agreed, but not really in the price bracket indicated by the OP. One can buy a good 5” for that sort of money!

[HollowpointParticipant @hollowpoint]

Posted by not done it yet on 21/10/2019 11:48:46:

Posted by Hollowpoint on 21/10/2019 10:03:33:

The Loughborough was my first lathe! If you can live without screw cutting it's an absolutely brilliant little lathe. It's very rigid and the build quality is excellent. It has good spindle capacity and they are cheap! When you consider the other crap in the same price bracket it's a steal.

Agreed, but not really in the price bracket indicated by the OP. One can buy a good 5” for that sort of money!

Yes I meant in the same price range of the Raglan. Usually sub £300.

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Hollowpoint,

Just check out eBay item number: 264473526961 for £300

Auction a month ago and withdrawn – probably sold outside epay. Don’t know what it may have gone for, but if space was available, I would go for one like this (given no drastic faults) – variable speed, twice the power, 1/3rd to 3x the rpm, screw cutting, power feed on both axes, QCGB, auto trip on carriage long travel and an extra 10” of space between centres.

IMO, unless under £150 the training lathe is not particularly good value versus a decent Little John, let alone a 5”!

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