Problem steaming up

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

Hi i am having a problem steaming my engine.

i light fire in boiler put blower on when it starts to get warm get loads steam and water out of chimney.

Does any one know where i should start looking it has had boiler pressure test last year.

xkXFMC6IVno&feature=youtube_gdata_player >**LINK**

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

PV Baker 31/2 060

[colin hawesParticipant @colinhawes85982]

Boiler overfilled ? using blower too soon? Colin

[julian atkinsParticipant @julianatkins58923]

hi ron,

sounds like a defective/open regulator to me. the steam is condensing in the cylinders and emitted as a spray with steam up the chimney. the water level in the gauge glass was ok so it wouldnt be the blower open.

i would check the regulator is closed. if you connect an airline to the boiler you will soon see if air is escaping up through the cylinders and blastpipe. or you could completely fill the boiler via the tank handpump and keep pumping and see if water eventually pours out of the blastpipe.

i would make sure it is the regulator before you start to dismantle anything though.

good luck!

cheers,

julian

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Are you saying you get this steam + water while it is still warming up, not as you start running? That will be condensate in the pipes and cylinders during the last run being warmed up again. There will be some water in the superheater pipes that is first to evaporate and be looking for a way out. It is also possible your regulator is not a perfect seal until it warms up. Cylinder drain cocks are rather usefull here as you also get loads of condensed steam from cold cylinders.

One thing that can happen is when you finish and let the boiler cool as the steam inside condenses it creates a vacuum that in turn pulls in water through the pump. This results in a very full boiler for next steaming. So always open the blower just before all pressure is gone to allow air in to releive that vacuum.

If you have too much water just let some out using the water gauge blowdown.

If you get a lot of priming even if the level is low it can indicate 'bad' water as some contaminents cause extra bubbling and frothing that carries water into the steam pipe. So when running it is often a good idea to blow down the boiler a bit every hour.

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

Thank you for the feedback yes it could be the regulator i made a new one last year took ages to lap in i wonder.

I have run it on air ok starts and stops with regulator.

I can't hear any escaping air.

I also made a new stainless super heater that also could be the problem although welding looks real good.

Just cannot understand why i cant raise steam gauge not reaching 10 psi yet looks good fire.

I have had gauge checked and ok.

Will remove regulator and try again after

many Thanks Ron

[FMESParticipant @fmes]

Ron, I think you may be opening the boiler steam blower too early, there doesn't appear to be a lot of water on the gauge so priming is unlikely.

If the regulator was not shutting properly there would be some movement on the wheels even at 10 psi and you say it starts and stops on air ok.

I can't make out your pressure gauge red line but I wouldn't be thinking about opening the steam blower until you had at least 25 / 30 psi on the clock and then only a crack of the valve.

hope this is of use

Lofty

[julian atkinsParticipant @julianatkins58923]

hi ron,

there wouldnt or shouldnt be any tendency of the loco to move with the reverser in mid gear as per your you tube clip.

one sometimes gets water coming out of the blower if the blower pipe is outside the boiler but your's is the LBSC type and with the blower open and the water level as per the gauge glass on your youtube clip there should be no water emitting from the chimney. i am sure you checked that the blower valve was closed in any event?

if you have tried the regulator on air and all seems ok i would give the loco another trial steam up and see what happens. make sure the blower valve and regulator are closed first!

you wouldnt get that nice fire as per your youtube clip if the superheater was leaking. on a small 3.5"g loco a leaking superheater would be very easy to diagnose.

there are other possibilities such as the internal pipe in the boiler between the blower valve and smokebox tubeplate fitting leaking, but this would be easily apparent on a hydraulic test.

cheers,

julian

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

Hi Guys well tried running on Air regulator seems ok as closed nothing turns soon as i open she runs ok going to try and build good fire and make sure Blower closed.

Can't find any leaks with air in going to let it Run on air as its been standing for 6 months free it of then will try to fire it up again fingers crossed.

If not i am joining Rugely model engineering club will ask them to pressure test it for me.

It passed boiler test last year ok so hoping its still all good.

It has had a new Regulator i made and new Stainless super heater no water or air leaking so hope this time to win will let you guys know and a big thank you for suggestions .

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

runs ok on air

[FMESParticipant @fmes]

Hi Ron, referring to Julians original post, if steam was getting to the cylinders via a leaking regulator it would have to either go through a cylinder inlet (unlikely in mid gear, but a small possibility) or through a poorly seating exhaust valve.

Either way, there would be a possibility of some piston movement.

But as you say it runs fine on air, and had a boiler test recently, I would still suggest that the blower was opened too early and too wide.

That would rob a lot of steam from the boiler straight up the exhaust.

I normally start my boilers with kindling and a little coal, and even throttle the electric blower back so as not to produce a massive draught, you shouldn't really try to raise steam too quickly.

Then with about 30 psi on the gauge I remove the electric blower and just crack the steam blower open while adding more coal.

Have fun

Lofty

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

Hi Lofty

I tried again today the Blower fully closed boiler half full and regulator fully closed.

I used Charcoal soaked in Parafin to start with i have to use Blower or fire goes out.

Once the charcoal is really going i then start to put a couple shovel fulls of coal.

When coal has started to get red i then add more but even when i have a glowing fire still no pressure.

I have tried everything nothing seems to work i am going to take it to club i am joining next sunday see if they can pressure test is again.

If not think it will become an orniment tried everything every one suggested and more at wits end

Ron

[FMESParticipant @fmes]

Always a pain to try and diagnose a problem from a distance, But it looks like its generating steam, so if its not building pressure with a good fire like on your video (provided the fire door is normally closed) it must have a major leak.

When you say if you don't use the blower the fire goes out are you referring to the electric blower on the smokestack? That would be quite normal, but the use of the steam blower at that time would not be of much use, except to drain off any steam produced at the low pressure.

It needs a second pair of eyes on it Ron, I don't think its anything serious if it passed its test ok. Good luck at the new club.

[julian atkinsParticipant @julianatkins58923]

hi ron,

like Lofty76 i am also sorry to hear of another unsuccessful attempt. you are doing the right thing by joining your local club, and am sure in a short while your P.V. Baker will performing well on the club track!

i cant say ive ever had such problems with any of my own locos apart from one occasion where i inadvertantly left open the vacuum ejector brake valve when steaming up many years ago (!), though ive often helped other club members with such problems.

cheers,

julian

Edited By julian atkins on 05/04/2014 23:42:48

Edited By julian atkins on 05/04/2014 23:43:07

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

Hi Julian Yes its a real Headache i have tried everything i could and still nothing.

I have tried so many times and come up blank.

I am going to wait till next sunday to Join new Club then will ask them to Pressure test it again.

So strange runs well on air but can't even get 10 psi made sure Blower was closed and regulator.

Only half tank of water also started on Charcoal then coal but after 30 mins still no pressure.

I have even fitted new Blower and new Pipe work had steam gauge checked all ok.

now at wits end such a misstery.

Thanks for all your Suggestions.

Will see what pressure test tells us

Ron

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

Well Guys i think i might have found problem at last.

I ran the engine for about 30 min's on Air and free it off as it not been run for six months other tahn a few mins.

I put air on and Ran again on closing Regulator noticed wheels still turning very slow but turning.

So Regulator seems to need lapping in again.

I made this one out of stainless steel for the two cheeses think i need to maybe make out of Brass.

Not looking forward to stripping down again but have at least an idea.

I presume even though its only leaking a little think it is stopping it steaming up.

Hope to get this soon

[FMESParticipant @fmes]

I wouldn't go too mad on lapping this Ron, you were running cold and you can't always tell if the regulator is going to seal until it warms up.

Only as a personal preferance of mine, I don't mind if the regulator leaks a small amount, it helps to warm up the cylinders and the drain cocks relieve any build up of pressure.

I would also surmise that a very small leak like you describe would not cause too much in the way of preventing steam pressure being built up.

All the best

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

Hi Lofty thank you again for advice i would not mind if i could get steam up.

I can't get more than 10 psi at best.

Its the only thing i can find wrong as i said fitted new Blower new water Gauge new pipes.

Just imposable to get fire to draw enough to raise steam.

It looks a good fire and thought if it was leaking it might be what's stopping me raising steam.

Everything else seems ok might still leave till i have pressure test again.

Thanks Again

Ron

[stan pearson 1Participant @stanpearson1]

Hi Ron

I don't think your problem is down to the regulator leaking, if your boiler cant cope with a small weep how will it cope when running fast at fully open?, have you checked for air leaks from the door and pipes in the smoke box, if no leaks and blower on even with regulator full open I would expect it to raise steam.

Regards

Stan

[61962Participant @61962]

Ron,

I'm in agreement with Stan on this. You need to look for air leaks in the smokebox. Check the door joint, around all the holes for pipe entries, particularly the steam and exhaust pipe(s). See that the chimney is sealed to the smokebox and the boiler/smokebox joint is tight. Get some bathroom silicone sealant and gunge them all up if you think there's the slightest possibility of an air leak. The electric blower should raise 30 psi inside of twenty minutes on the biggest of 5" gauge boilers with a good charcoal fire, and a bit of a steam leak at the regulator won't affect that. The only steam leak that does affect steaming is from the steam pipes in the smokebox, or the superheaters, but only once the steam supply is on them. You can test for that possibility as well by opening the smokebox door when you get a few psi on and you will see or hear steam escaping into the smokebox or you can use a lighted taper and you will see the flame being blown by the steam from the leak.

Don't dispair, steam engines a really quite simple, and it doesn't usually take long to solve problems.

Eddie

.

[julian atkinsParticipant @julianatkins58923]

hi Eddie and Stan,

if you look at Ron's youtube clips closely you will see that the fire is burning brightly, but there is obviously a steam leak somewhere preventing pressure being raised. Plus Ron says water is coming out of the chimney. with the electric blower this could in no way be attributed to a leaking smokebox door! there doesnt appear to be a smokebox vacuum problem, but water condensing or getting into the cylinders. this suggests a regulator problem unfortunately, though always difficult to determine without personal examination of same.

hopefuly all will be revealed shortly and hope Ron doesnt have a huge repair job and all will be easily sorted in due course.

cheers,

julian

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

Wow thank you guys i will try sealing pipes in smoke box i had done it with fire cement.

I did not know you could use bath sealer thought it would burn or melt.

my firebox door does not have a catch to hold closed it has a tiny gap at the side could this be a problem.

Will try these two as easy fix first before taking Regulator out again.

At least i have more leads to try thank you guys.

Ron

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

Wow thank you guys i will try sealing pipes in smoke box i had done it with fire cement.

I did not know you could use bath sealer thought it would burn or melt.

my firebox door does not have a catch to hold closed it has a tiny gap at the side could this be a problem.

Will try these two as easy fix first before taking Regulator out again.

At least i have more leads to try thank you guys.

Ron

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

Well still no luck i sealed inside smoke box with silicon round pipes and the smoke box joint.

I also did the same on smoke box door to make sure of a seal.

I made sure firebox door was closed tight.

After 30 mins trying to raise steam all i could get it to was 15 psi with water gauge almost empty.

I can't see any water leaks but seems to use a lot of water.

I built fire up Gradually with blower on till i had almost 3/4 full.

As soon as i take the Blower of fire goes out.

I never opened the blower ot the Regulator kept closed all the time.

Other than the Regulator leaking slightly on air cannot see anything else.

now ran out of idea's as i have tried everything you Guys suggested where do i go from here !!!

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

decent fire hardly any water still no steam after 30 mins

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