Postal Imports … Notice 143

[Andy_GParticipant @andy_g]

Posted by Robert Atkinson 2 on 02/01/2021 22:12:21:

That link is old. 3rd Dec, latestes notice I was referring to was dared 22nd Dec.

Robert G8RPI.

This was the original link that Michael Gilligan posted, but his posts have since disappeared;

**LINK**

From subsequent posts, it seems this is out of date. A note to that effect would have been much more useful than the original posts and responses just vanishing…

 

Edited By Andy Gray 3 on 02/01/2021 22:31:45

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

When I bought some PCBs direct from China the courier DHL handled the VAT. The VAT was £5, the handing charge was £11

[VicParticipant @vic]

Posted by Robert Atkinson 2 on 02/01/2021 22:12:21:

Posted by Vic on 02/01/2021 19:08:24:

Posted by Robert Atkinson 2 on 01/01/2021 19:27:48:

You should now not pay VAT or Duty on items under £135 purchashed from abroad.

Robert G8RPI.

I think you may be reading it wrong.

“For imports of goods from outside the UK in consignments not exceeding £135 in value (which aligns with the threshold for customs duty liability), we will be moving the point at which VAT is collected from the point of importation to the point of sale”

**LINK**

That link is old. 3rd Dec, latestes notice I was referring to was dared 22nd Dec.

Robert G8RPI.

Earlier in the year the government published that VAT free imports for goods to the value of up to £15 would be scrapped and that VAT would apply to all personal imports. I suppose in the space of two weeks they could have changed their mind and have actually increased the VAT free value from the old £15 to £135 but I think that’s a bit unlikely.

From eBay:

“From 1 January 2021, the UK will introduce a new model for collecting VAT on imports.

The changes at a glance

• eBay will collect and remit VAT on orders up to a value of £135 imported into the UK and sold to consumers. There will no longer be a VAT exemption for small consignments up to £15.

**LINK**

[Martin of WickParticipant @martinofwick]

Well, I see what the intent is, it is just that the torrent of words is difficult to interpret or understand the practicalities ( dont get bogged down in petifoging detail, just make it happen…..).

I get it now that the < £135 just pushes the tax on small stuff to PoS so is not paid at the border.

As SD states, I suspect all non VAT declared goods or items from vendors not identified as registered for HMRC VAT will be turned over to Royal Mail/AN Other Courier to collect the tax for HMRC and charge the purchaser whatever they like for the service.

In theory most purchases should eventually funnel through the few registered OMPs or privateers that are willing to dance to HMRC's tune because of the extreme handling charge penalty.

Brilliant really, without lifting a finger HMRC extract their extra pound of flesh. But I wonder how many dodgy far east Arthur Daily types will register, collect the VAT, trouser said VAT, then suddenly disappear – Watchagonna do then HMRC – send a gun boat, start another Opium War..?

There is some benefit in that it should deliver some uptick in trade for pukka UK based retailers.

Edited By Martin of Wick on 02/01/2021 23:17:06

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Andy Gray 3 on 02/01/2021 22:30:52:

Posted by Robert Atkinson 2 on 02/01/2021 22:12:21:

That link is old. 3rd Dec, latestes notice I was referring to was dared 22nd Dec.

Robert G8RPI.

This was the original link that Michael Gilligan posted, but his posts have since disappeared;

**LINK**

From subsequent posts, it seems this is out of date. A note to that effect would have been much more useful than the original posts and responses just vanishing…

Edited By Andy Gray 3 on 02/01/2021 22:31:45

.

I can still see all the posts that I made, Andy

The discussion has taken a life of its own, so I’m not inclined to post anything further … but to the best of my knowledge, nothing has been removed.

MichaelG.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

All looks the same as when I first saw the original post and no edit lines at the bottom.

[Andy_GParticipant @andy_g]

I can see them now – must be a problem at my end. Apologies all.

[VicParticipant @vic]

Posted by Martin of Wick on 02/01/2021 23:15:23:

Well, I see what the intent is, it is just that the torrent of words is difficult to interpret or understand the practicalities ( dont get bogged down in petifoging detail, just make it happen…..).

I get it now that the < £135 just pushes the tax on small stuff to PoS so is not paid at the border.

As SD states, I suspect all non VAT declared goods or items from vendors not identified as registered for HMRC VAT will be turned over to Royal Mail/AN Other Courier to collect the tax for HMRC and charge the purchaser whatever they like for the service.

In theory most purchases should eventually funnel through the few registered OMPs or privateers that are willing to dance to HMRC's tune because of the extreme handling charge penalty.

Brilliant really, without lifting a finger HMRC extract their extra pound of flesh. But I wonder how many dodgy far east Arthur Daily types will register, collect the VAT, trouser said VAT, then suddenly disappear – Watchagonna do then HMRC – send a gun boat, start another Opium War..?

There is some benefit in that it should deliver some uptick in trade for pukka UK based retailers.

Edited By Martin of Wick on 02/01/2021 23:17:06

Hopefully it’s not all bad. I used to avoid buying anything with a value over £15 as I knew I would have to pay something like a £10 ransom collection fee on top of any VAT and duty. As I see it I can now buy stuff up to £135 and pay the VAT up front without any further charges. A £20 item should now cost £24 including the VAT. Last year it would have been around £34 including the collection fee. Whether overseas sellers increase the cost of goods for collecting the VAT remains to be seen but will be hard to tell anyway with Covid 19 putting a spanner in the works.

[Peter Cook 6Participant @petercook6]

Posted by Peter Cook 6 on 01/01/2021 16:41:06:

I bought a couple of work lights from China on Ebay. Total value £56. Bought (and paid for) before Christmas, due for delivery next week sometime.

Was expecting to pay inbound VAT (and possibly the surcharge – depending on courier). I wonder what will happen now?

An update on these items. I just received a Post Office card telling me that there is Customs Duty to pay. It amounts to £3.14 (plus of course the £8 post office "handling fee" ) which is 5.2% of the total price (£59.36). No idea how they arrive at that number but – as the items are now £39.58 each on E-bay or £79.16 for the two I guess I am still £8.66 ahead.

Edited By Peter Cook 6 on 04/01/2021 14:45:23

[WearyParticipant @weary]

BBC report "Some companies refuse UK deliveries over Brexit tax changes".

Phil

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Another thing adding confusion is the new e-commerce rules. Under these a online market place (OMP) e.g.eBay, will be responsible for collecting the VAT. They appear to already be doing this.

If importing directly there should be no import VAT under £135.
I'm pretty sure some sellers will take advantage though.

The eBay guidance also say that in some cases (they don't say what) they will collect VAT on items sold by UK sellers who are not VAT registered! Does this mean 20% on private seller items? Who knows. It does look like HMRC are going to get a lot more income.

Last question, are the ads on the forum an OMP??

Robert G8RPI.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

UPDATE:

I have found more: **LINK**

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/changes-to-vat-treatment-of-overseas-goods-sold-to-customers-from-1-january-2021/changes-to-vat-treatment-of-overseas-goods-sold-to-customers-from-1-january-2021

MichaelG.

.

[VicParticipant @vic]

Posted by Robert Atkinson 2 on 04/01/2021 22:39:27:

If importing directly there should be no import VAT under £135.

Robert G8RPI.

The low value exemption of £15 has been scrapped. VAT is now payable on everything.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Vic on 05/01/2021 09:18:27:

Posted by Robert Atkinson 2 on 04/01/2021 22:39:27:

If importing directly there should be no import VAT under £135.

Robert G8RPI.

The low value exemption of £15 has been scrapped. VAT is now payable on everything.

.

[ my emboldening ] …That’s why I started this thread

There is a difference between ‘payable’ and ‘actually collected’

and it appears, from Notice 143, that the system might sometimes work in our favour.

MichaelG.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

For clarity, ads on this site are not an 'OMP' as they take you to the sellers own website.

I am daily seeing overseas websites that are either suspending sales to the UK altogether or no longer selling some items to the UK for the time being.

An interesting one is that a major musical instrument retailer in Germany, who have a UK-specific website, have been told by Fender that they can't sell their products to the UK as they only have a European distribution deal.

I think this is going to take months or longer to get sorted out, but it's going to be very hit and miss buying from anywhere abroad now the low value threshold has gone*.

Neil

*I think the main reason for this was that HMRC realised how much VAT and import duty they were missing on items deliberately undervalued and sent from overseas, raher than Brexit.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 05/01/2021 14:17:06:

[…]

*I think the main reason for this was that HMRC realised how much VAT and import duty they were missing on items deliberately undervalued and sent from overseas, raher than Brexit.

.

Very probably … and they were not alone … similar EU arrangements are due to be implemented in July

MichaelG.

.

Ref. [one of many sources]

 https://www.ey.com/en_gl/tax-alerts/uk-implements-new-e-commerce-vat-rules-effective-1-january-2021

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 05/01/2021 17:03:29

[peak4Participant @peak4]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 05/01/2021 14:17:06:

……………………………………

Neil

*I think the main reason for this was that HMRC realised how much VAT and import duty they were missing on items deliberately undervalued and sent from overseas, raher than Brexit.

Difficult to comment too far without getting into politics; and I think we agree that this forum isn't really the place for that. I hope my comments are seen as explanatory, rather than provocative.

As I understand it (and that may be very limited as I'm no trade expert), the actual processes and methodology are actually an EU initiative, rather than a UK one; The reason you quote though is valid, but also there is/was an issue, within the EU, of some sort of internal VAT/tax shenanigans which someone felt needed plugging.

It seems that the UK would have had input to designing these policies in the run-up to Brexit, (with the speed the EU sometimes work, the policies were probably many years in the making) and subsequently essentially copied them into our current tax laws for implementation post Brexit. We should remember that VAT is broadly only an EU/UK tax.

It seems that since we are now outside the EU, and thus treated as a 3rd country, it may work to our disadvantage compared to EU-EU trading.

Some useful explanations are contained herein with further embedded links which relate to the Distance Selling regulations for 3rd countries.
https://www.avalara.com/vatlive/en/eu-vat-rules/distance-selling/distance-selling-eu-vat-thresholds.html

Those who wish read about it, in a more political atmosphere elsewhere, might be interested in comments that a chap called Edwin Hayward has to say on this rolled up this Twitter thread I don't know enough to endorse or denounce his views, although they make interesting reading.
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1346213208277790720.html

Bill
I've no issue at all if a mod/admin wish to review my comments, as I've no intention of starting a war on here; purely trying to be informative, rather than contentious.

[VicParticipant @vic]

“It seems that since we are now outside the EU, and thus treated as a 3rd country, it may work to our disadvantage compared to EU-EU trading”

I’m not sure why, I’ve bought stuff from Germany in the past and the shop charged me VAT or whatever they call it.

[Henry BrownParticipant @henrybrown95529]

It seems ebay aren't up to speed yet! Here's a listing for a used geocoin, it has to be used because not only does it say pre owned it is also "activated" (the coin has a trackable number that the owner activates to allow it to be tracked as it travels the world). The listing clearly shows that VAT will be added. Maybe the seller in the US doesn't know about the VAT changes here and has set his listing wrongly but I'd have thought ebay would have picked that up from the pre owned statement.

[peak4Participant @peak4]

Posted by Henry Brown on 06/01/2021 12:21:07:

It seems ebay aren't up to speed yet! Here's a listing for a used geocoin, it has to be used because not only does it say pre owned it is also "activated" (the coin has a trackable number that the owner activates to allow it to be tracked as it travels the world). The listing clearly shows that VAT will be added. Maybe the seller in the US doesn't know about the VAT changes here and has set his listing wrongly but I'd have thought ebay would have picked that up from the pre owned statement.

I might be missing something here, but surely this is correct.
If you tailor your search, in such a way that a variety of similar items are shown world wide, and then index on most recently listed, everything from outside the UK, that was listed post Brexit, shows VAT to be added.
I've only tried it specifically for Geo Achievement Geo-coin.
Ebay don't seem to have retrospectively acted on listings which were active pre Brexit (which I think may be correct anyway – I'm not sure about that)

I think I've got the following about right;
Post Brexit, we have removed the lower value VAT threshold for imports and made it zero.
For items <£135 which are subject to VAT, the VAT should now be collected at source from the seller.
On-Line Marketplaces (OLMs) can/must(?) take over this collection on behalf of the seller.
Items >£135 it's collected at the UK end. (I can't remember how that works with OLMs)

This electronic coin isn't classed as VAT exempt, whether new or used, (it's used, but not an antique) and is for sale from a private seller via ebay (an OLM) At the moment, the bidding price plus postage hasn't exceeded £135
Ebay collects VAT, on behalf of seller, and submits it direct to UK HMRC ( or in a few months time, to the relevant EU tax authority if an EU buyer wins the auction)

If that seller was dealing with you (in the UK) directly, not via ebay, they would still be responsible for the UK VAT under our new taxation laws.
They would have to fill in the relevant US customs documentation, and I think the VAT would be handled via their chosen courier, for which they would be charged an admin fee. (This is still assuming sub £135)

An overseas business seller sending you the item directly, would have to follow a similar path (I think), or could register their business directly with UK HMRC, for which they would be charged a fee.
They could then directly remit the VAT to HMRC, but are responsible for keeping records of all transactions for six years (I've no idea how this will be audited).

An overseas business seller selling to you directly if you have a registered VAT number with HMRC yourself, can ask you for that number and use it for payments.

I'm using the term "Overseas" loosely here, meaning Non UK, but excluding NI.

It gets more complicated for imports to N Ireland, which I've not explored; this has addled my tiny brain sufficiently as it is.

Bill

[Henry BrownParticipant @henrybrown95529]

You may well be correct Bill, far too deep for me! The coin came onto my watchlist this morning so I assumed it was a new listing and the ebay action was taken when the item was added.

If what you say is correct however it will kill sales of second hand, or pre-owned, items from overseas unless the lister starts at a stupidly low price and a bidding war goes on.

[Author]

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