Opinions of Mach3 Turn

[NealebParticipant @nealeb]

I have recently bought a Denford Orac CNC lathe. The previous owner was either in the middle of ripping out the old electronics (which was a replacement of the original Denford electronics) or installing new. In either case, it was part-complete but by adding a missing ground connection between motion control and driver boards, I had it working. The motion control board (some cheap undocumented Chinese board) had a Mach3 plugin so already having a Mach3 licence, this was my starting point. Lots of trials and tribulations finding the ports and pins data, etc, but it kind of worked.

My question, though, is how other users find Mach3 Turn, and whether I am even using the right version. I find it clunky and unreliable. I am currently running revision .066 which I believe to be the latest, but I am aware that sometimes it is necessary to update Mach3 to an earlier version to fix bugs introduced in later releases…

I find the need to switch between three different screens from initial homing and referencing to actually cutting somewhat clumsy, complicated by the fact that once a toolpath has finished, the machine refuses to see any more keyboard input and I end up restarting Mach3 to be able to do anything else. I have wired the spindle index signal to the MC board and Mach3 is registering it as I turn the spindle by hand, but I can't get Mach3 to actually use it for speed control and hence no screwcutting at the moment.

I actually have a PlanetCNC motion controller and associated software on order as Mach3 is somewhat past its sell-by date – but I know it has its users still and they can't find it as bad as I do! So what am I doing wrong?

[NealebParticipant @nealeb]

Canvassing opinions on this software

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

Screwcutting with Mach3 is a waste of time unless you have a large lathe that doesn't vary its spindle speed whilst in a cut. Mach does an initial calculation at the start of the cut and assumes nothing will change during machining of the thread.

I have PlanetCNC and its screwcutting works well and as you would expect, it varies the feedrate in proportion to spindle RPM. I'd never go back to Mach.

 

 

Martin.

Edited By blowlamp on 18/09/2023 17:03:19

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

Opinions differ. My Super 7 threads fine with Mach3 though I don't push the DoC much. There's usually no hurry.

Though I have to use 2 screens, manual and auto, I don't have the issues you describe. I'll have to check which version I am using.

I still use Mach3 as I'm used to it and have developed a good set of tool setting macros. I first started with it in 2012 I think, and starting again I wouldn't choose it now since it is unsupported. I'm using a UC100 motion controller, Win10 and a dinky Dell mini PC. At some stage Microsoft will do an update that breaks Mach3 and with no one to fix it that'll be curtains! Starting again I would use probably UCCNC, or maybe Mach4.

[Alistair Robertson 1Participant @alistairrobertson1]

I have an Orac with a home built control using a standard break-out board, a SmoothStepper and a Siemens VFD.

It works pretty well on threading using the built in one pulse per rev encoder but it does struggle with a big DOC.

I was going to upgrade to an Acorn CNC system but as I have decided to donate my machines to our local "Mens Shed" I will leave the upgrade to them. A friend has upgraded his old Haas using the Acorn system and after a bit of experiment it seems to work very well.

[Martin ConnellyParticipant @martinconnelly55370]

I have used Machscreen to modify the screens for Mach3 Turn to suit my needs. I put new buttons on the manual screen in place of the blank ones at the bottom of the page to take me directly to the wizards for turning, facing boring and tapers. I also modified the button that posts the code to take me directly to the Auto screen after it is posted. I have a manual data input line on the first Auto screen as well and used the blank space on that screen to add a button to go to the turning wizard.

I have corrected an error in the facing wizard, see the current thread regarding fitting an ELS.

Martin C

Edited By Martin Connelly on 18/09/2023 18:26:25

[NealebParticipant @nealeb]

Thanks for the comments. I'm not a complete beginner with Mach3 – I used it with a CSLabs controller on my router until I moved to UCCNC and UC300, and on my mill where it was paired with an Ethernet SmoothStepper, now also replaced with UCCNC/UC300. Both for reasons more to do with the controllers than Mach3 itself. So an obvious choice for the lathe would have also been UCCNC/UC300 except that they are very clear that they do not yet support lathe use although it seems to have been under development for several years. I have some projects like that as well…

Still, Mach3 Turn is a new variant for me. As I read here, others seem to use it OK (reservations about one pulse/rev and threading duly noted) but there are bits of it that just do not want to play. OK, moving from screen to screen is cumbersome but I'm sure I could get used to it, but showstoppers at the moment are that having run a complete gcode file successfully, I can no longer jog. It seems that the feed stays on "feed per rev" but sets itself to zero. I enter the gcode instruction for "mm/min" in the MDI and while the display box legend changes, the value stays resolutely on zero whether I type into the box or enter Fxxx in the MDI. Having to restart Mach3 means that repetition work is awkward. And why won't Mach3 actually use the index pulses at all, when the diagnostic screen shows that they are arriving?

After discarding UCCNC, I short-listed Acorn (hdw and sw from one vendor – good idea!), LinuxCNC plus Mesa board (as the most recommended board to use with LCNC – but Mesa say "out of stock" ) , PlanetCNC (also single-vendor), and somewhere at the back of the pack, Mach4 but needs a motion controller and not sure which one. Acorn looked reasonable but seemed expensive; LCNC/Mesa (assuming suitable cards available) seems like a project in its own right – yes, there's plenty of help available from enthusiastic supporters but the answers usually seem to need another whole round of questions to both understand and also determine what has not been said but assumed; PlanetCNC did not seem to get much criticism, seems to have a fair bit of built-in lathe support, and was reasonably priced.

But I would like to get to play with the machine using what's there pending arrival of the new bits, and I just can't get Mach3 to play properly! One of us doesn't know the rules…

Edited By Nealeb on 18/09/2023 20:29:02

Edited By Nealeb on 18/09/2023 20:30:05

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

Still, Mach3 Turn is a new variant for me. As I read here, others seem to use it OK (reservations about one pulse/rev and threading duly noted) but there are bits of it that just do not want to play. OK, moving from screen to screen is cumbersome but I'm sure I could get used to it,

If you don't mind doing some screen development you can add shortcut buttons to speed this up.

but showstoppers at the moment are that having run a complete gcode file successfully, I can no longer jog.

That's weird and I haven't seen it before.

….. Having to restart Mach3 means that repetition work is awkward. And why won't Mach3 actually use the index pulses at all, when the diagnostic screen shows that they are arriving?

You have to set some tick boxes in "general config", I'll check what they are.

Edited By John Haine on 18/09/2023 21:48:02

[NealebParticipant @nealeb]

Thanks, John – I've had a hunt through all the config pages and done a lot of googling but I have a suspicion that there's a setting I've missed. The kind that's staring you in the face but you can't see until someone points it out to you…

I'm not going to spend a lot of time on this with the new motion controller on order (together a spindle encoder to use with it) but if it's a matter of ticking the right box, I would like to see what the basic lathe hardware can do!

If you can, could you confirm which Mach3 revision you are using? I have several to hand from previous problem-chasing exercises with the software.

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

Tick use spindle feedback in sync mode. And r3.043.062

[Martin ConnellyParticipant @martinconnelly55370]

On the opening screen pressing keys m, a, t or d will take you to the Manual, Auto, Tool or Diagnostic screens. In the manual and auto screens pressing q will take you back to the opening screen. On the Tool and Diagnostic screens there is a blue arrow next to the Reset button, this takes you to the Auto page. These few buttons and key presses mean you can move from screen to screen quite easily.

If there has been a change from feed in mm/min to mm/rev then this can be changed back to mm/min by entering G94 in the MDI input window. Change to mm/rev is done by entering G95 in the same way or by having it in the Gcode program. This is often the case when the Gcode is for thread cutting, there is a G95 instruction but not a G94 to return it to mm/min. I suspect that this is what is happening to you. I think you also need to be in mm/min mode to jog if the spindle is not rotating.

Regarding jogging, is the Jog On LED green, if not click on Jog On, is the Jog Inc. LED green if not then click on jog mode to change from continuous movement to jog. If you are on the Auto Cycle screen after the Gcode has run then you need to use the blue arrow button to the left of the Cycle Start button to return to the previous screen with the jog selection buttons on it to do this.

Alternatively if you toggle the jogging screen you will be able to change jog mode and also see a few keyboard shortcuts on some of the keys, these also work when the the jogging screen is hidden. You can toggle Jog Mode by using Ctrl J on the keyboard if you do not want to change screen. And Alt J changes the jog distance setting.

One other thing to note is that I have had the occasional seemingly random problem of the Slow Jog Rate on the jogging screen reset to 0% and this needs to be raised to a rate that suits your machine. I suspect there is some keystroke combination that acts like the rate lowering button that can be accidentally pressed. The first time this happened I spent a lot of time finding what the problem was.

The index pulse caused me some problems when I tried out a different controller. I used a generic board that picked up the index pulse and also showed it working in Mach3. Trying everything to solve the problem of threading not working I reverted to my original Smooth Stepper (I had used it to get CNC working on my mill) and that cured the issue of threading not working. The reason behind the problem is that when using an external controller Mach3 uses the external controller to trigger the motion for threading. This means that the Smooth Stepper works as it is designed to do, threading using the index pulse. The generic board did not work as it did not have the built in ability to wait for the index pulse to trigger the threading motion. The point here is that for threading using Mach3 with an external controller is that the external controller must be capable of working with the Mach3 system otherwise you will be struggling to find a problem that is due to an unsupported board. This is a case of asking the right questions before buying a board. It is not well documented and I found this out by asking a Mach3 group. You need one that explicitly states that it is Mach3 threading compatible or that the vendor says is compatible. That way you have grounds for a refund if it is not compatible. If you still have the Smooth Stepper board I would use it on the lathe.

Martin C

Edited By Martin Connelly on 19/09/2023 08:58:25

Edited By Martin Connelly on 19/09/2023 09:10:10

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

Another undocumented feature of Mach3 Turn is that it does support G31 probing. I use this for setting up tool tables, ad-hoc X axis referencing, and referencing Z to the RH end of the stock as I have a sensor which senses contact between any tool and the work (as long as it's metal).

[NealebParticipant @nealeb]

John, Martin – thanks for the inputs.

I did have the right boxes ticked on the general config screen but I think Martin's comment re motion controller may well be correct. I have found virtually no information on the card that's in there so it's hardly mainstream; I did find the Mach3 plugin to install but that is about all the data I have on it. Everything else has been trial and error, with quite a lot of the latter. Probably intended for mill/router use so no lathe function support.

I have tried G94/G95 switching via the MDI but although the feed speed box changes its legend, I can't seem to get the speed to move off zero. I'll try again with your notes in hand.

I shall also try upgrading to .062!

This all sounds fairly familiar – a new bit of software like this seems very arcane and non-intuitive at first and then after a short while it becomes straightforward and you wonder why you ever had problems!

[NealebParticipant @nealeb]

I installed .028 last night as that happened to be on my laptop. Thanks for pointers to various parts of the interface that I had not taken on board – like the left arrow to get back to 1st "Auto" screen. The jogging problems that I had been seeing seem to have gone away although I'm not absolutely sure if that was not me knowing better how to drive it! However, threading still not working but by doing some more googling around the motion control card that is in there, I did discover that it is "limited" in its capabilities. I tried some threading code generated by the Mach3 wizard and although the spindle spun up, the saddle just sat there looking at me. I think that card is best summed up by one comment I found, "It's cheap and it mostly works."

However, sitting on my desk in front of me is a shiny new PlanetCNC motion control card that promises to fix all my issues and make the coffee at the same time. There's a 100PPR encoder on its way from China, and I need to sort out a PWM to analogue converter, plus various odds and ends like ribbon cable to screw terminal adaptors. The machine already has an MPG plus axis/jog speed switches mounted (but not wired) so they will be included. Plus proper e-stop, power/standby/ready switching, etc. So bye-bye Mach3…

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

You won't look back once PlanetCNC is up and running.

I own a Denford Starturn 8 which is refitted with hybrid drives and motors and it rocks.

Martin.

[NealebParticipant @nealeb]

Thanks, Martin! I get so used to the "I wouldn't have done it like that!" comments on this and similar forums that a vote of confidence that I have actually taken a known and tested path is very encouraging. Not that I'm saying that anyone else is wrong, just that there are quite a few flavours of "right"…

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

There's not much choice if you want proper synchronised lathe screwcutting. I think only Acorn, LinuxCNC and PlanetCNC are able to do it.

Martin.

[sam sokolikParticipant @samsokolik60334]

also – things like constant surface speed and feed per rev are really nice things to have..

I Know linuxcnc has it – I assume Acorn does.. Don't know about planetcnc..

sam

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

I can't say that I've explored these commands, but this is from the PlanetCNC G-code reference:

G93 – Feed Mode – Inverse Time
Usage: G93
In inverse time feed mode, an F word means the move should be completed in [one divided by the F
number] minutes. When inverse time feed mode is active, an F word must appear on every motion
line.
Parameters:
#<_feedmode> – (RW) current feed mode

G94 – Feed Mode – Units per Minute
Usage: G94
In units per minute feed mode, an F word is interpreted to mean the controlled point should move at a
certain distance per minute.
Parameters:
#<_feedmode> – (RW) current feed mode

G95 – Feed Mode – Units per Revolution
Usage: G95
In units per revolution feed mode, an F word is interpreted to mean the controlled point should move
at a certain distance per spindle revolution. This mode requires RPM feedback from the spindle.
Parameters:
#<_feedmode> – (RW) current feed mode

G96 – Spindle Mode – CSS
Usage: G96
In this mode surface speed is constant and based on cutting diameter. Surface speed is specified in
units per minute. This requires special hardware and is usually not used on simple machines.
Parameters:
#<_spindlemode> – (RW) current spindle mode

G97 – Spindle Mode – RPM
Usage: G97
In this mode the spindle speed is specified in revolutions per minute.
Parameters:
#<_spindlemode> – (RW) current spindle mode

[NealebParticipant @nealeb]

In my research I came across Eding CNC, which I found mentioned by someone who had set it up for a lathe. However, their website does not specifically mention lathe use; the nearest is something on the lines of, "…and through the use of specially-written macros, other machine types can be supported." In other words – you are on your own with this one!

CSLabs CSMIO motion controllers do support threading. That means one of their more expensive 6-axis controllers, plus the encoder extension module, plus their own "Pro" software, not the basic free version, to make it all work. Definitely not cheap, although I have used one of their controllers in the past and they are nicely put-together bits of kit.

After that, I reckon you are probably into the realms of much more expensive solutions aimed at commercial use.

CSS and feed per rev – as far as I can see, G96 CSS is not supported (based on a comment from PlanetCNC in a support forum post). I know it is listed in the PlanetCNC manual, but I don't think that it is implemented. All the same, I have just tried entering it as a command in my PlanetCNC software (in simulation mode – no machine connected) and it is accepted – so who knows? However, I think G95 feed per rev is there, together with spindle speed feedback via an encoder for accurate threading. Apart from something like facing a faceplate, I'm not sure how significant lack of CSS is – even with my variable-speed manual lathe, I haven't found much need for it in practice. But I'm sure to be proved wrong some time!

Edited By Nealeb on 21/09/2023 20:45:26

Edited By Nealeb on 21/09/2023 20:48:03

[sam sokolikParticipant @samsokolik60334]

Posted by Nealeb on 21/09/2023 20:44:14:

In my research I came across Eding CNC, which I found mentioned by someone who had set it up for a lathe. However, their website does not specifically mention lathe use; the nearest is something on the lines of, "…and through the use of specially-written macros, other machine types can be supported." In other words – you are on your own with this one!

CSLabs CSMIO motion controllers do support threading. That means one of their more expensive 6-axis controllers, plus the encoder extension module, plus their own "Pro" software, not the basic free version, to make it all work. Definitely not cheap, although I have used one of their controllers in the past and they are nicely put-together bits of kit.

After that, I reckon you are probably into the realms of much more expensive solutions aimed at commercial use.

CSS and feed per rev – as far as I can see, G96 CSS is not supported (based on a comment from PlanetCNC in a support forum post). I know it is listed in the PlanetCNC manual, but I don't think that it is implemented. All the same, I have just tried entering it as a command in my PlanetCNC software (in simulation mode – no machine connected) and it is accepted – so who knows? However, I think G95 feed per rev is there, together with spindle speed feedback via an encoder for accurate threading. Apart from something like facing a faceplate, I'm not sure how significant lack of CSS is – even with my variable-speed manual lathe, I haven't found much need for it in practice. But I'm sure to be proved wrong some time!

Edited By Nealeb on 21/09/2023 20:45:26

Edited By Nealeb on 21/09/2023 20:48:03

Css is awesome – surface finish and tool longevity…

Linuxcnc (is free) does threading – css and fpr.. (and to start – you could use the printer port…) In the dev version of linuxcnc (well – the pre-release version) there is also roughing/finishing cycles.. (G70,71 and 72)

sam

[Tony JeffreeParticipant @tonyjeffree56510]

A couple of other alternatives that I have come across recently, and that both appear to support a spindle encoder:

https://www.masso.com.au/product/masso-touch-lathe-cnc-controller/

https://kachurovskiy.com/products/4-axis-electronic-lead-screw-controller

No experience of either.

[sam sokolikParticipant @samsokolik60334]

The masso controller seems to have css and fpr but you cannot run them at the same time..

**LINK**

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

The second seems to be just an ELS at the moment though implied it may be upgraded to full cnc.

[Tony JeffreeParticipant @tonyjeffree56510]

Posted by John Haine on 25/09/2023 18:19:46:

The second seems to be just an ELS at the moment though implied it may be upgraded to full cnc.

There is a bit more detail here:

https://github.com/kachurovskiy/nanoels/blob/main/h4/README.md

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