Number series drills – history and origins

[Tim StevensParticipant @timstevens64731]

Vandal is just as racist as Irish, or Eyetie, Hun, Sassenach, yes even Welsh, (etc), whether or not European in origin seems irrelevant to me. My point was to remind us of the origin of the term, not to criticise its use. It is sometimes difficult to see why words like Thug, a religious sect in India, should still be OK when applied to those whose actions we despise, whereas any reference to a particular religious sect in Israel is seen as quite out of order. I do not say we should stop using terms, what I say is we need to realise that we are sometimes very picky about what is OK and what is verboten, with few clear reasons.

And yes, it was intended to provoke thought, and I hope it did so.

Cheers, Tim

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Tim,

A thought for you …

Could it be that 'Vandal' is racist, but 'vandal' is not ?

MichaelG.

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

I would have thought that the vandals that are about wouldn't much care if it was racist or not.

That link is a good place for a number of things which can be a bit difficult to find elsewhere.

John

–

[clivelParticipant @clivel]

Until now I was happy to assume that your previous posting was motiveless and possibly even tongue-in-cheek, I cheerfully overlooked the fact that you are probably too narrow minded to actually click on the link to the digitised volume, in which case it would have been quite apparent that it came from the "Leland Stanford Junior University Library" an institution not likely to be responsible for VANDALISING its own books.

As to "vandal" being racist, perhaps you should take that up with the editors of the Oxford Dictionary who define it here as "A person who deliberately destroys or damages property belonging to others". And I very much doubt that the long since vanished Germanic tribe who vandalised much of Europe 15 centuries ago have lodged too many objections with the OED.

Posted by Tim Stevens on 05/08/2015 22:39:57:

whereas any reference to a particular religious sect in Israel is seen as quite out of order.

 

Unfortunately your second posting makes your motive crystal clear, if anyone here is a racist, then it is you, but your racism clearly only extends to one particular group i.e. Jews.

At this point I have lost all further appetite for this thread and can only hope that a moderator sees fit to lock it.

Clive

 

Edited By clivel on 05/08/2015 23:13:57

[WD70Participant @wd70]

There is a word which sums it all up – "Nitpicking" – get back to drills I say.

[dcostaParticipant @dcosta]

Hello all,

Between Tim Stevens's message (22:39:57) and Clive's message (23:12:45) more than 40 minutes have passed. It's a pity Clive didn't read Tim's message before he wrote his. If he did he could see that Tim wrote 'Vandal' and in the very same dictionary Clive cites in the link, in the second entry, he could have seen (Vandal) A member of a Germanic people that ravaged Gaul, Spain, Rome (455), and North Africa in the 4th-5th centuries.

regards
Dias Costa

 

Edited By dcosta on 06/08/2015 00:53:56

[WD70Participant @wd70]

Posted by Tim Stevens on 05/08/2015 22:39:57:

Vandal is just as racist as Irish, or Eyetie, Hun, Sassenach, yes even Welsh, (etc), whether or not European in origin seems irrelevant to me.

And yes, it was intended to provoke thought, and I hope it did so.

Cheers, Tim

I am interested in and enjoy history too (big time) and all this does provoke thought, ie. -"what has this got to do with the price of fish?" (or drills).

[clivelParticipant @clivel]

Dias,
Not only did I read the second message posted at 22:39:57, it was actually that second message that prompted me to respond, a message in which he inexplicably and for no possible reason, other than he likely has a problem with them, decided to drag Jews into the equation.

As to reading something into the capitalised use of 'Vandal'; being at the beginning of a sentence, where it is expected to be capitalised, I don't believe that your point has much merit. Especially as in his earlier posting it is was the non-capitalised 'vandal' he had an issue with.

Regards,
Clive

[julian atkinsParticipant @julianatkins58923]

i use my number drills all the time. i have 2 sets plus special sets for miniature loco injectors of special make.

there are some annoying gaps in the number series not covered by imperial fraction drills. Neil very interestingly pointed these out in his mapping.

i dont know the origins of number drills, but so long as they are available of decent quality i will continue to use same. all my sets are Dormer when they were made in the UK. my jobbing drills are ex-RN and in metric! they are of pretty good quality too!

the gaps highlighted by Neil are a mystery and puzzle. the number drills arent a consistent range at certain points. i dont for one moment believe it has anything to do with passes through a die or other such stuff. it must be a range that suited particular applications at the time that then became standard.

cheers,

julian

[WD70Participant @wd70]

Now that we are back to drills, why is it necessary to be so meticulous about the drill size choice, and what happens when these 'expensive'? drills require sharpening? In my opinion, it would take a deft hand to sharpen them properly.

At one time, I did have a job sharpening drills for automatic lathes (for a short time as you would imagine – I got out of it after a few months) and they were expected to drill I think, minus zero, plus 002" and that took a while to become proficient at!

I did however find that the hole size could be varied quite a bit ( by just carefully touching one of the cutting edges on the stone) and managing to keep hole sizing under control.  I also found that another good way to make the drill cut on size was to round the outer corners of the cutting edges (ever so slightly) after sharpening.

These are my findings from my earlier employment experiences of course but I did find that they worked for me.

Edited By WD70 on 06/08/2015 05:51:45

Edited By WD70 on 06/08/2015 05:56:35

[OuBallieParticipant @ouballie]

WD70,

That technique is also used to get a bandsaw blade to cut straight.

All you do is lightly press a stone to that side of the running blade that's being deflected, and it's soon cutting straight.

Geoff – Did that on my first bandsaw.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

For the record, thuggees were Indian criminal gangs, not a religious sect, and could be Muslim or Hindu. The word means 'deceiver' in Hindi.

And I don't see how 'vandal' can be 'racist' given that the perjorative use long post-dated the disappearance/assimilation of the Vandals into the European and North African population.

Neil

(He wouldn't let it lie…)

[WD70Participant @wd70]

Posted by OuBallie on 06/08/2015 15:31:52:

WD70,

That technique is also used to get a bandsaw blade to cut straight.

 

Thanks, that's good to know! I just inherited a little bandsaw , have been plagued with blades running off and breaking and I've been tearing my hair out – now saving up for a new blade,

 

Neill

Yes, I think that most people who live in Europe would have Vandal blood in their veins! Norse, etc.too and whatever blood the rabble in the Roman armies ( from every country in the known world) would have had in their veins – Not the pure race we seem to believe we are! – eg. have a good look at the variety of shapes sizes colours etc.that there are in the UK! (not forgetting the Celtic and pre- Celtic Britons of course!) these are not necessarily recent immigrants either, they go back thousands of years.

Then we all knew that, didn't we?  

Back to drills

Edited By WD70 on 06/08/2015 21:40:56

Edited By WD70 on 06/08/2015 21:55:33

[dave bromellParticipant @davebromell72167]

Free Speech, the absolute right to offend. Use it or lose it.

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

If I have to drill a hole I have numbers, letters, fractional and metric ! IF I can’t find the right size amongst that lot it’s a lost cause ! Though I have often looked at the number and letter sizes and wondered how they were arrived at. Noel.

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

Free-[mouse]wheeling past all that pseudo-sociology and going back to the OP….

You don’t need create tables for the workshop wall. For example:

They are already available in the Zeus books although the modern versions are less comprehensive.

Tracy Tools produces a poster-sized version of equivalents and drill sizes for threads. It is though large and double-sided: mine is on a clip-type clothes-hanger so I can hook it where convenient and turn it would as necessary.

 

The metric drill sets readily available advance in 0.5 and 0.1mm increments so finding a suitable alternative for a letter or number size is rarely a problem. (0.1 mm is almost 0.004″, near enough for most practical purposes, mainly nuts and bolts.)

If letter and number drills seem of peculiar sequences, the ISO_M thread series and their hexagon proportions hardly epitomise numerical neatness, either!

[bernard towersParticipant @bernardtowers37738]

WD70, Your point (no pun intended) about reshaping the outside corners is nicely explained by the man who invented it Joseph Mazoff and can be read at. champ/drill_point_geometry_nt.pdf.  I personally sharpen most of my drills above 1/8 in this manner as I have found that close to size tolerances can be held, and tip burn is less of a problem.

[dave bromell]

On dave bromell Said:

Free Speech, the absolute right to offend. Use it or lose it.

Why bring a 10-year-old thread back to irrelevant life to say that? If it’s been unused since the OP in 2015, it is neither used nor losed.

[dave bromellParticipant @davebromell72167]

Probably because I don’t believe free speech to be irrelevant. Not in 2015 nor in 2025.

[jamesp1Participant @jamesp1]

I;m sure we all agree. But a zombie thread is a zombie thread.

[FulmenParticipant @fulmen]

Great. Another freeze peach fanatic. I’m sure we can expect a torrent of good content from you in the future…

 

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

keep it on topic or the thread gets closed

[JasonB]

On JasonB Said:

keep it on topic or the thread gets closed

Well done Jason, I was beginning to think I had strayed onto a Wordsmiths Forum.

 

 

I had always assumed the Numbers drills were based on the Wire Gauge system. These do differ between the UK and the USA if my memory serves me correctly. Again if my memory serves there were two different systems in use in the UK at one time and this is why there are some sizes close to one another in the Numbers box. Numbers still have a purpose in my workshop, but then like the Numbers my type are on the way out.

Regards

Gray,

[Author]

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