mini mills – which is the best?

[mechman48Participant @mechman48]

Im indoors;

I note from your comments last year that you have a WM16 & were pleased with it & its performance after a couple of months.I am expecting delivery of WM 16 ordered at the recent Harrogate exhibition & was wondering, now that you have had yours for a longer period, if you have come across any serious shortcomings/deficiencies to date, e.g. bearing probs, overheating motor, alignment faults etc? I would be interested to know so that I can preempt any disappointing surprises & maybe get in touch with Warco to resolve any issues. Would appreciate a PM with details.

TIA

George

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by Peter G. Shaw on 10/08/2011 15:26:16:

Might be worth looking at Arc Euro Trade's new Sieg Super X2 plus mill at around £515.

 

These use a new 500W motor (350W originally) and the larger table from the X1 series mills Arc supply. Also, they don't have the two-speed gearbox, using instead electronics for a speed range of 100-2500 rpm. Which suggests that they may not be affected by the gear breaking problem or the electronic failure problem.

 

And if you go for their preparation service at £155 (£670 total) then you should be assured of a reasonably good working machine right from the start.

 

Anyway, good luck in your quest,

 

Peter G. Shaw

Hi Peter,

The Super X2 Plus has a 500w brushless motor, with a belt drive. No two-speed gearbox. A lot more quieter then the standard gearbox version, and a lot more torque. Also, to add to your earlier comments, the fixed column is far more rigid, with box section being approximately 10mm thick, as opposed to the standard 4mm thick column used on standard X2s. It took me a long time to convince SIEG to do this. 

Ketan at ARC.

Edited By Ketan Swali on 12/06/2012 20:28:31

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by Alex DU PRE on 10/08/2011 21:01:59:

Hi, I have an X3 milling machine from Arc Euro Trade. If you are interested, I have a short review of it on my personal model engineering website, http://www.amdcustom.com.

Just follow the link under Equipment Reviews.

I would also add to the review, that even a machine this size (500W motor, or so), REALLY struggles to drive a 10mm cutter through steel at anything like a decent depth of cut. It's pretty good with aluminium. You either need patience or a bigger machine if you want to do serious metal removal!

 

I hope this is of some interest.

 

Alex.

Hi Alex,

The Super X2 Plus (SX2P) has a brushless DC motor and belt drive. The X3 standard (not the Super X3) has a 600w brushed DC motor with belt and gear combination. When it comes to torque, I will stick my neck out and say that the 500w brushless motor on the SX2P with belt drive has a better torque than the standard X3. However, the working envelope on the X3 is greater.

Ketan at ARC.

Edited By Ketan Swali on 12/06/2012 20:28:58

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

I think it must be worth asking the suppliers for a machine spec in respect of aspects such as table flatness, spindle runout, XYZ orthogonality etc. before you buy. These things aren't too hard to check and if they are not to spec SEND IT BACK! Just because a machine is cheap doesn't mean we have to accept rubbish – clearly some of these machines are quite good and some apparently identical are not. We ought to start behaving like consumers.

[geoffParticipant @geoff]

re small milling machines has anyone successfully fitted dro.s to peatol mill uusing the ready availiable horizontal and vertical dro.s

geoff

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

John,

Whilst you are at it why not insist they also spray it to match your favorite gladioli. ?

Myfords used to buy Taiwanese millers in, rework them, respary them and fit french [ hawk – spit – ding ] electrics on them add 3 grand and sell them as Myfords. Now look where Myfords are and I don't mean Hebden Bridge.

As Peter has pointed out you can get a similar service for £155 from ARC for anyone who is not sure what they are buying.

After all if what's available from the main advertisers in ME and MEW doesn't suit and has no spec certificate you could always buy a Wabeco if you want the quality. Just had a look the F1200E is £2568.00 at current prices but it does have a spec certificate.

John S.

[Gone AwayParticipant @goneaway]

Posted by Charlie, on 09/08/2011 20:42:32:

Hi tim

I have had a WM16 mill for a couple of years, It came with a little green tool box

that i am very fond of, It a lovely little tool box,As for the machine itself, The slide

cover(with the texture of flat black chewing gum)came apart in under three weeks

I'm in Canada and have a locally branded version of thw WM16 (mine came with a little red toolbox). To be fair, the way cover only cracks and falls apart if you try to get full travel from the slide ( ! )

Little Machine Shop sell some nice, flexible concertina way-cover which fixes the problem inexpensively.

I haven't had the same fuse trouble as you but mine do blow at the slightest sign of cutter overloading (every time a drill grabs for instance). Probably because, as part of their approval process, the local electrical authority insisted on a small fuse than the manufacturer fitted. Presumably to make sure there was no possibility on earth of it stalling without the fuse blowing.

Not a problem getting to the fuse in my setup but a nuisance keeping a stock of them around. I made up an external outlet extension box containing a resetable circuit breaker then fitted a larger machine fuse and that has fixed the problem,

Other than that, I'm pretty satisfied with it. I have a DRO installed and even managed to get a power table feed specifically for this model from Grizzly. I have the same nagging doubt about the plastic gears, particularly as I don't have a clue how to get at them should I need to replace one. (I've looked but still not figured it out.

 

Edited By Sid Herbage on 12/06/2012 22:12:52

[Phil H 1Participant @philh1]

Tim,

Just to add to the advice – I have owned a Chester Champion 16V (the equivalent of the Warco WM14 – I believe) and to date – I have no complaints. The table appears to be reasonably accurate and has actually got about 330mm travel. It also has variable speed drive with digital readout.

The only thing to warn you about is the up/down Z travel of these small mills. By the time you have a rotary table, chuck, component plus drill chuck and drill – you are running out of space. I was warned about this before I bought the machine but I have a large capacity drilling machine that can handle larger drilling jobs.

Oh, the manual is perfectly ok and it is supplied with the usual tool kit of spanners and allen keys etc.

Phil H

[Phil AshmanParticipant @philashman88468]

I've had a WM16 for two years now, and it's given no trouble at all. I've never had a blown fuse. It's accurate, the slides are silky smooth, and it's done everything I've ever asked of it.

I agree with Charlie about the "chewing gum" rubber cover though, mines just the same. Arc-Euro do some flexible bellows that might fit. I was also delighted with the little green box, and also the two tins of touch up paint that it contained, which in my case had just a bit of semi-solid goo in the bottom.

But I could certainly recommend it on the basis of my own experience.

Phil

[Steve WithnellParticipant @stevewithnell34426]

Posted by EtheAv8r on 10/08/2011 16:55:22:

Not that I am any expert, but if I were going to buy a small mill, it would be the Super X2 Plus from Arc Euro, and as a beginner get the preparation service so it is all set up and ready to run on delivery.

When I was still deciding what to get, if I had gone for a manual mill, it would have been the Sieg Super X3. However I went mad and got the KX3.

I agree. I would also add that Arc have the advantage of excellent access to spares, in depth relationship with the manufacturer and fundamental understanding and experience of the Sieg machines they stock. AND they are the only outfit I know of who regularly engage with their customers in forums such as this…ie they don't run and hide once they have your cash.

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

I agree that the Super X2 Plus is a good choice. I've recently taken delivery of one (in France) for converting to CNC.

I stripped it down completely, following earlier experience of Far East machines, and was surprised at how well it was put together. The only problems were the poorly drilled locating holes in the gib strips (easily fixed) and the fact that the drawbar for the drill chuck had been tightened by a gorrila!

Russell.

[David HaynesParticipant @davidhaynes53962]

I engaged in a mill choice query before Christmas (here) and finally settled on the Sieg X3 with R8 spindle and imperial dials (my lathe and drawings are imperial and if I wanted, DRO can easily be fitted). I missed the pre-Christmas offer from ARC but secured a price hold from Axminster (the other Sieg supplier). The machine was ordered from Axminster at the start of January and arrived around 3 months later. I dismantled the machine to enable regreasing and size reduction for installation. I found that there was no need to regrease as the transport protection was not overly thick and the factory grease seemed to be sufficient. I re-greased anyway. The heaviest items are the base (~24kg), the head (~20kg) and the column (~35kg), so size reduction proved to be an essential operation. The total weight of ~143kg, ~165kg with stand, makes a very solid machine.

The mill has been in frequent use since arriving at the start of April and in these two months I have found it a pleasure to use, it is always able to do as asked and with a satisfactory precision (eg the table level varies by 0.002" over the whole 400mm traverse.)

Not only can I recommend the Sieg X3 milling machine, but I can also recommend Axminster, who I have found extremely helpful throughout.

Dave

[mike adkins 4Participant @mikeadkins4]

i would avoid clarkes like the plague, ok im only running a cmd10, its enough for my needs, however the clarkes service is absolutly abysmal, new mill, week old the power fails, its not the fuse, takes it back to be told engineers will need to look at it two weeks min, explode time and after quoting goods not fit for the purpose im offered a replacement, fine so few weeks later im noticing the fine feed/coarse feed being a problem but hey i can cope, as i have been sold the 2mt collet set im using those, im starting to notice the hole in the spindle is wearing fast were you fit the locking bar, gets a multi collet chuck from toolco and end of problem, or so i thought, comes time to take the chuck out and fit the drill chuck, hole in spindle aint going to take it and like puty the metal gives way as im trying to lock it while i undo the drawbar, rings machine mart, oh no its over six months old we cant exchange it, will have to be seen by an engineer who will either repair or replace, arranges to meet engineer in shop, he arives and then just walks out the shop and hes gone, at moment im limping so cant move fast,so asks counter whats happening,oh hes taken it away to examine it, get back to us in two weeks to see what needs doing, not impressed as the problem is perfectly viewable to a myopic snail i demand to know who i complain to, machine mart customer services, female on other end obviously reading from a sheet and i may as well have rung the speaking clock, so i ask who i can take this further with to be told this is it, phone down and starts banging emails out about crap customer services and totally unaceptable engineer repair times, must have hit a button with someone because i get a call the following day, its been hiked and the machine will be sorted the following day, picked up the machine the following day repaired, staff could not believe it had happened and said they had been expecting two – six weeks !!!! they were aware the proverbial had hit the fan and the parts were couriered up soonest, totally unheard of apparently and when i mentioned emails i had sent said they have heard people screaming at customer services and threatening all to no avail, im poss in the market to replace my lathe soon, the experiences with machine mart/clarkes has totally put paid to me dealing with them for one

Edited By mike adkins 4 on 16/06/2012 02:24:56

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

In reply to John S, I'm not advocating that these machines should be high precision, just that they should have a spec against which you can buy them so as to have some recourse. I see so many tales of woe both here and on other sites about cheap machines and people seem to be so tolerant!

I have a Myford from Taiwan, a VMB, and actually I think it is a very reasonable machine. I have told elsewhere on this forum my only beef about it, which I easily fixed. It's a bit agricultural, but accurate and pretty sturdy and it cost about £1500 new.

I also bought an X1 from ARC to convert to CNC but decided that I wanted to get machining so sold it on to a mate and got a little Denford which is fantastic. ARC are a great supplier, but didn't take their prep service since I'd be dismantling the mill anyway. I thought the finish between the column base and the bed was lamentable, looked like the casting had been smoothed with an angle grinder so I machined the bed flat (it just fitted the VMB). Since then I've machined up a CI adapter block on the Denford for my mate and he has fitted the fixed (non-tilting) column from Clarke's and I gather it has made a huge difference to the accuracy and rigidity of the machine. I also thought the gibs were a joke, too thin for the gaps, bent, and roughly finished, so I made new brass ones at least for the Y and Z slides before I sold it which fitted properly.

I think that the ARC X1 with the long table with the fixed column from the Clarke version would be a better machine.

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Posted by John Haine on 16/06/2012 09:27:14:I think that the ARC X1 with the long table with the fixed column from the Clarke version would be a better machine.

John,

You have just described a SX2 although the SX2 has an even beefier column than the Clarke version.

John S.

[Ex contributorParticipant @mgnbuk]

I re-greased anyway.

Re-greased which bits, David ? Only ball & roller bearings are greased usually on a machine tool, evrything else is oiled. Greasing slides & screws leads to their premature demise.

Nigel B.

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Posted by John Stevenson on 16/06/2012 09:33:01:John,

You have just described a SX2 although the SX2 has an even beefier column than the Clarke version.

. . . and a more powerful belt driven head assembly

Russell.

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

Indeed John, but it's a shame that the SX2 keeps the same downfeed arrangement as the X2, rather than a leadscrew. I know it's faster but as far as I can see the only way to get accurate downfeed is to measure it by adding a DRO or using a DTI. Rack and pinion doesn't seem to me to be the best approach.

[David HaynesParticipant @davidhaynes53962]

Nigel,

Like many people on this forum, I find ArcEuro to be a fair, informative and neutral supplier. Also like many, I make use of their preparation guide which describes the areas where grease is applied. This is part of their preparation service.  I followed the guide and would hope that it isn't going to be detrimental to the machine. As I understand, Ketan of ArcEuro has a background that should qualify for compiling the guide, which has been around since 2007 and there has been plenty of time for thorough peer review.

Dave

Edited By David Haynes on 16/06/2012 11:23:00

[Francis SykesParticipant @francissykes95134]

For what it's worth, I bought the 2217-30 from SPG Tools last year – it arrived before Christmas.

I've only given it a small amount of use so far, although it's seen action on mild steel, aluminium and nylon so far. Most of the time since I've spent building/welding together a cabinet/stand for it. It did make some slots in the top of the unit (3mm mild steel) for coolant drainage (going to cobble up a coolant set up for it, have washing machine drain pump at the ready for this duty!)

Good machine, although as yet I haven't done anything needing lots of precision so can't comment on that. It's the equivalent to the Warco WM-18, but was significantly cheaper than the Warco at the time.

Pleased to see the price has gone up by £200! Glad I got it when I did.

It's 215kg (when I finished the stand a couple of weeks ago, an engine frane was used to lift it up), so relatively hefty for a bench mill.

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