Milling Machines

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

If you want precision, you can have it with a hammer and cold chisel, a file, then a scraper, but with one of these little vertical milling machines you'll get to the same place quite a bit quicker, and you can still scrape the surface if you want to. Ian S C

[steve clark 2Participant @steveclark2]

Right, let me clear up some points here, firstly I joined this forum to help me narrow down my choice of mill and gain some knowledge on the different bit holding systems, it really is that simple, I had no idea which suppliers of such machines were/were not connected with this forum.

In my very first post I did state that I've already had the "what are you going to use it for" question, I can only have this size of machine period so what does it matter, if the parts are for a train, remote control car, boat etc etc?

What on earth has my location got to do with anything either? I travel all over this Country, going to many different types of shows throughout the Year so don't assume I live in the South! What next, will my race or religion come into it?

You know after all the recommendations on here on the SX2 and the fact that it's belt drive, I was actually considering one, funny that you all of a sudden stated that you wouldn't sell me one.

Ketan, I must say, it would appear you have a 'big chip' on your shoulder about something or maybe you just can't stand any negative comments about the machines you sell, jumping on my post about the holes being drilled slightly out for example, that actually originally came from someone else by the way!

You know I didn't want to say this but I've actually spoken to you, some time ago I phoned you, asked a couple of general questions on lathes and the mere suggestion of a competitor's machine resulted in a big huff and you slagging them off!

I were most shocked and surprised, how unprofessional of you and you know what, I found them to be the complete opposite, most kind & helpful, I did end up purchasing a lathe from them.

Sorry but from my own telephone conversation and the way you have responded here I couldn't recommend Arceurotrade to anyone.

Anyway, many thanks for all the info from the other members on this forum, much appreciated.

[Les Jones 1Participant @lesjones1]

Steve,
I have found Ketan and others I have spoken to at Arc Euro Trade when I have phoned them most helpful. They are one of the few companies where you get to speak to someone that knows about the products they sell. My only connetion to them is as a satisfied customer.

Les.

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Posted by steve clark 2 on 18/01/2013 20:02:32:

You know I didn't want to say this but I've actually spoken to you, some time ago I phoned you, asked a couple of general questions on lathes and the mere suggestion of a competitor's machine resulted in a big huff and you slagging them off!

I were most shocked and surprised, how unprofessional of you and you know what, I found them to be the complete opposite, most kind & helpful, I did end up purchasing a lathe from them.

.

 

Sorry but I don't  see this at all with Ketan.

I have seen him sell an inserted miling cutter to a punter at a show and when the guy has asked for spare tips he's pointed them to Jenny's stand at J B Cutting tools because she has better quality tips than the ones the tool comes with.

 

This is just a sour grapes post because you have been told a few home truths.

 

John S.

Edited By John Stevenson on 18/01/2013 23:04:09

[steve clark 2Participant @steveclark2]

No, nothing to do with sour grapes honestly, that were my experience on the phone.

Ok, you can only go by what you have seen here, I’ve never had such a response before, not another member has replied like he has, do you really think that’s accepted then???

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Hi Steve,

Believe what you want to belive. You are entitled to your views just as much as I am to mine.

By being open in response to your comments you beleive that I am slagging off, or anythting else – be it on the telephone, in person, or on here, you are entitled to your belief.

Having re-read my comments, I have over reacted in places in the way I have responded to your comments, for which I apologise. However, I still stand by my views, be they on the telephone, in person, or on any forum. I have no chip on my shoulder about anything. I only say what I believe.

You do not have to agree with me. This is life and we are all different, and we all have a choice.

Enjoy your hobby and have a good life.

Ketan at ARC.

[Martin Walsh 1Participant @martinwalsh1]

Steve when buying milling machines lathes etc I always

use this rule buy the biggest you can afford

because there is always a job that comes up

which is bigger than you intended

Best Wishes Martin

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Ketan does not have a chip on his shoulder and I can prove it.

The last time he came up ower place I had to give him two quid to buy a bag of chips and he ate them all, so no chips left over.

Incidentally, the bastard still owes me the two quid.

John S.

[Donald WittmannParticipant @donaldwittmann92536]

Well said Steve Clark, I agree totally with your deductions. As for Arc, the guy is pleasant enough UNTIL someone starts telling the truth about Chinese machines and then you can rest assured that his sidekick Mr S will respond to back him up. The only difference between them and Laurel and Hardy is Laurel and Hardy were a laugh, this pair are a joke.

Ps, if possible look for a second hand Wabeco mill. first class Hobby /Light engineering gear. and then, [ And I don,t mean this offensively] you will be the limitation [ Which will be less and less as you gain experience].

Regards,

Donald.

[MICHAEL WILLIAMSParticipant @michaelwilliams41215]

Why do people buying milling machines , lathes , taps , drills , milling cutters and everything else down to bog rolls and making everything from Mamods to swarf on this site have to make so many preliminary enquiries about everything ?

What do I want to achieve , what is available for the purpose , what is my budget , get on with it .

Half an hour ????

[NJHParticipant @njh]

Michael

Quite so – and then go on to argue about it!

I don't recall any enquiiries about bog rolls though ………….. do you have any recommendations in that area?

( Ah well it all passes the time and it's too cold to go out to the workshop today)

Cheers

Norman

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Posted by Donald Wittmann on 19/01/2013 11:02:06:

Well said Steve Clark, I agree totally with your deductions. As for Arc, the guy is pleasant enough UNTIL someone starts telling the truth about Chinese machines and then you can rest assured that his sidekick Mr S will respond to back him up. The only difference between them and Laurel and Hardy is Laurel and Hardy were a laugh, this pair are a joke.

Ps, if possible look for a second hand Wabeco mill. first class Hobby /Light engineering gear. and then, [ And I don,t mean this offensively] you will be the limitation [ Which will be less and less as you gain experience].

Regards,

Donald.

.

Donald , could not agree with you more.

Who's the one who has done the most explaining about Chinese machines ? Got to be Ketan.

Read back thru this post and it's obvious that from his repeated vists to the factory and surrounding supplies he knows what goes on, is not afraid to state it which is more than other lock up box shifters do.

I apologise if it seem like I'm standing up for him again but I NEED that two quid.

Laugh = joke in my book, other opinions may vary.

As regards the Wabeco I could not agree more and I meant this. Very nicely made mill but hardly in the Chinese price band but as we all know you get what you pay for.

However seeing as these are so good they only appear in the second hand market very very rarely so if we have say 200 people wanting a mill and I reckon this is a low number giver sales from many suppliers only 2 ? people are going to be satisfied .

What do the other 198 do ?

[Donald WittmannParticipant @donaldwittmann92536]

John, Point taken about Wabeco, they are few and far between on the second hand market [just spent an idle 45mins looking] It,s just that I am of the opinion that if you buy a machine you should not have to spend time or money in getting it to operate correctly ie, Gib strips that need lapping, bearings replaced with SKF / FAG or similar, colums not square / perpendicular, holes not lining up, now surely you must agree that these are some of the basics to get right? And yes I am also aware that even British, German and other European /Japanese makers have had their quota of "Duffs" but they are very few and far between. I have said this before and say it again, it all comes down to quality control or in many cases of Chinese machines lack of it., and until they address that issue the situation will not improve.

Regards,

Donald.

[HowiParticipant @howi]

There seems to be a lot of mud slinging going on in this topic, a lot of it aimed at Ketan from Arc.

All I know of Ketan is from his posts on this forum, I have found him to be very open and honest about Chinese machinery. Arc used to offer a fettling and setup service, I ( being an absolute beginner) thought that the machines Arc sold were not fit for purpose until this work had been done. This added considerably to the cost. I am sure this also led to a loss of sales. I ended up buying my lathe from elseware. Ketans knowledge of the Chinese (and Indian) manufactures, has opened my eyes to reality in this respect and I can quite understand why this service has been suspended by Arc.i am sure, that like many others, I have ruminated and cogitated over what to buy and who from. I eventually decided on the SX2 from Arc. I could have paid a lot less and indeed a lot more for an ordinary X2 mill, so why did I go for Arc's offering? Brushless motor and all that comes with it, fixed column and R8 spindle taper and Ketans honesty in telling what to expect from Chinese machines in general. Do I know how to use a mill? No! But am willing to learn as I go along, same as I have done with my lathe.

I am not stupid, I know that there has to be a difference in capabilities of machines that are intended for the hobby market and industrial market, and indeed between hobby machines costing a few hundred and a few thousand pounds. What I have purchased is at the limit of what I can afford, plus I am under NO illusions about my own capabilities or complete lack of them. Had the Chinese machinery not been available I doubt I would have been able to partake in this great hobby. It takes courage for a supplier to be open and honest in the way Ketan has.

i have used Arc's service for supply of the smaller items and found it as good as any supplier out there, the SX2 I picked up from the shop to save delivery charges and found the staff very friendly and accommodating and will certainly use Arc in the future.

I only know Steve clark2 from his postings on this forum, which to me, only seem to end up being slanging matches, this is not what I have come to expect on these forums, and to be honest does little for newbies like myself. All I want to do is suck up a small fraction of the knowledge available on this forum and indeed other forums like this one.

It does not matter what hobby one undertakes, you will always find the 'snob' factor, mines is bigger better and cost more than yours, therefore it goes without saying, I can do better than you with your inferior equipment etc etc.

I have been around long enough to know that, those that can,DO. Those that can't, talk the talk.

Come on guys

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Howard Winwood on 19/01/2013 15:26:40:

Had the Chinese machinery not been available I doubt I would have been able to partake in this great hobby. It takes courage for a supplier to be open and honest in the way Ketan has.

Come on guys

Very well said Howard!

At this price, the tools will need some fettling … but surely that is part of the fun.

MichaelG.

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

Even if you get an oldie but a goodie from the old days you're going to have to do some stuff to it

When my dad did piece work in Birmingham the annoying bit was waiting for the guy to reset the machine to acceptable limits

You got no money when you weren't making bits

Not knowing anything about it he would stand with smoke coming from his ears until the supervisor sorted his machine or tooling out

With model engineering we have to learn all that stuff ourselves, from scratch

In the beginning things progress at a snails pace, but like anything in life, we learn eventually

[alan smith 6Participant @alansmith6]

Steve

This has been so far an interesting thread with all the old faithful 1000 plus posters giving their halfpenny worth. Who is Laurel and who is Hardy?

I`ve seen some unfair comments as well, typically the one that said fettling the machines will be fun! I don`t think that a complete beginner like Steve is going to find it fun, it will probably spoil the hobby for him!

Steve, Ketan has given you a reverse psychology reply to your Questions and I think that some of his postings were made while his blood sugar level was low. I don`t think that he would really refuse to sell you a machine and let his competitors gain by it. After all he is a business man and must be very successful in order to turn away business.

Don`t let this experience colour your opinion of the hobby, creating something with your own hands will give you great satisfaction as well as keeping you out of the way of "her indoors".

On the other hand, buying a machine without a definite goal to achieve will be a waste of money as it will, after the first kilo of swarf has been created, while away a lonely life slowly rusting in the shed while you watch the telly with the wife and kids.

There are other milling machines that you can buy such as the Raglan, the Tom Senior, All good old British machines that will probably just need a few minor adjustments to bring into use. You can buy these for around the same price as an SX2. Don`t forget to haggle with the dealer and get a substantial discount.

Best of Luck,

Alan

ps. Don`t forget that the luddites are lurking north of Watford.

Edited By alan smith 6 on 19/01/2013 17:42:44

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

I think we forget how spoilt we are these days. There have always been budget lathes, but I sincerely doubt that pound for pound they were as close in quality and capability to 'top end' machines as they are today.

China will stop artificially keeping the price of their currency low one day, and when folks have to pay the value of their goods, people will look on the last couple of decades as a golden age for new entrants for the hobby.

Neil

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by alan smith 6 on 19/01/2013 17:33:28:

I`ve seen some unfair comments as well, typically the one that said fettling the machines will be fun! I don`t think that a complete beginner like Steve is going to find it fun, it will probably spoil the hobby for him!

Kindly define "the hobby"

[Chris TriceParticipant @christrice43267]

Building things for pleasure rather than commercially. How sharp do you want the definition? Please define "define".

[alan smith 6Participant @alansmith6]

Thank you Chris, looking at Michaels efforts on this thread he doesn`t exactly come across as sympathetic to beginners.

By the way Michael, what exactly do yo procure?

Alan

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Chris Trice on 19/01/2013 18:45:07:

Building things for pleasure rather than commercially. How sharp do you want the definition? Please define "define".

Chris,

My point was that Alan said [quote] "it will probably spoil the hobby for him".

I simply wanted to understand what Alan presumes to be "the hobby"

My own engineering hobby is building, modifying, improving [etc.] various devices; including machine tools. I have never bought a Chinese Mill, but I see no reason why improving one should be any less rewarding than building a steam engine from castings.

Others may think differently.

MichaelG.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by alan smith 6 on 19/01/2013 19:20:21:

…. looking at Michaels efforts on this thread he doesn`t exactly come across as sympathetic to beginners.

Alan

Alan,

I am bewildered by this remark.

MichaelG.

.

.

Posted by alan smith 6 on 19/01/2013 19:20:21:

By the way Michael, what exactly do yo procure?

Alan

.

Alan,

Goods and Services in various sectors [Aerospace & Defence; Public Sector, Utilities].

… The products are irrelevant to this discussion; effective Procurement is a discipline.

MichaelG.

[Francis SykesParticipant @francissykes95134]

My goodness, I thought this was a forum of mature adults!

For what it's worth, I went with a WM18 clone from SPG tools, but would have happily gone with many of the others on here, SPG at the time were the right price for me. It's an R8 machine, I haven't found anything particularly awry with it in the 12 months I've had it.

Lots of R8 tooling available, and with a friend with a Bridgeport it made even more sense for me.

I bought a collect set, so use that for holding end mills. No problem with ejecting the collects, probably quarter turn to tighten and only a light tap with the side of the spanner to release.

On Chinese tools generally the price is excellent, enabling many of us to have significantly better equipped workshops these days than otherwise. I've got a few other Chinese sourced items, none let me down. Best via a UK importer who ensures quality control and support.

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by alan smith 6 on 19/01/2013 17:33:28:

Steve, Ketan has given you a reverse psychology reply to your Questions and I think that some of his postings were made while his blood sugar level was low. I don`t think that he would really refuse to sell you a machine and let his competitors gain by it. After all he is a business man and must be very successful in order to turn away business.

Alan,

You make me laugh. No reverse psychology here. I used to have sugar level problems before – usually on the higher side, rather than the lower side . However, you will see that I did apologise for over reacting in places. I also said that I stand by my views. In my experience, if there is a lot of hassle pre-sale, there will be a lot of hassle post sale. Every time I go against my gut feeling about not to sell, the sale always creates problems, as per the example I stated earlier. As I will find it difficult to meet Steves expectations, it is better that he is serviced by my competitors. I know that he would not be interested to buy from me anyway.

In my opinion, being successful or otherwise in business does not mean that ARC should compromise and accept every sale, just because a potential buyer is waving money at me. This is the first policy which is instilled into every employee at ARC. We have turned away lower and much higher value of sales, when we do not deem them to be in the best interest of ARC.

I started in business with my father in 1986. Thirteen years ago, we were as good as bankrupt with a £60,000.00 overdraft resulting from bad debts of over £160,000.00. We dissolved our partnership, I sold my house, paid off the overdraft and started this business. The principal of this business was and still is, to try to be open and accept honest sales without hassle. In my books, the customer is not always right.

I have already told you that the SX2P will fail to meet your particular high precision expectations. Sooner or later, fettling is always part of the equation to make these machines meet your specific requirement. This does not mean they are not fit for purpose. This does not mean they are not suitable for beginners. You are welcome to come and meet me when ever. I am still happy to politely turn you away for an SX2P then to sell you one if my gut still tells me to. It does not mean that I am arrogant. It does not mean I have a chip on my shoulder. It does not mean that I don't like you as a human being. It just means that I don't want any hassle from you, skilled or otherwise. Pure and simple.

ARC will never be able to please everyone. No company can please everyone. ARC aims to please the majority, and we are successful in this respect, because of our openness, which is accepted by many, and rejected by few. We all have our own views.

In answer to your last question sentence, I am successful enough to retire today. My business is my hobby. It feeds me today. What the future holds, only time will tell.

Ketan at ARC.

Edited By Ketan Swali on 19/01/2013 20:16:11

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