Milling Machines

[GaryMParticipant @garym]

Alan, Neil's article is in MEW 199 February 2013.

Gary

[alan smith 6Participant @alansmith6]

Gary,

That explains it, the mag isn`t in the shops yet in Norway as of yesterday and can you believe that it costs 119 Kronor, about £12 in UK money. I know that I should have a subscription, maybe this year.

Alan

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by Bob Perkins on 16/01/2013 20:50:49:

Ketan,

Any prospects of arc supplying a power feed kit for the SX2 plus?

Bob P

One day may be Bob. We have had two attempts at it so far. Got stuck with various issues in the development process. We are attempting it for the third time now. If successful, we hope to have something later this year, but no promises.

Ketan at ARC.

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by Nicholas Farr on 16/01/2013 21:52:37:

Shopping around is not always about price, sometimes the options come first. I do understand that some people do not know what they are looking for or what they most likely need and forums like this can really help them and I for one trust your input and the guides on your web site.

Regards Nick.

I get your point Nick and agree that there are factors other than price to be considered, and you are right in saying that forums like this can and do help.

Ketan at ARC.

[steve clark 2Participant @steveclark2]

I am a bit surprised about the precision aspect, how far off are these machines then?

I'm sure that I'm not the only new comer to such machines who would assume that they would be pretty much spot on! How much do you have to spend to get one that is then?

For those that have one with a fixed head, how do you get on if you want to drill/cut at an angle? Let's say it's a length of bar or flat plate, I'm guessing that you are stuffed if it's in the centre? Angle vice would only be good for working on the ends??

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Posted by steve clark 2 on 17/01/2013 15:01:32:

I am a bit surprised about the precision aspect, how far off are these machines then?

I'm sure that I'm not the only new comer to such machines who would assume that they would be pretty much spot on! How much do you have to spend to get one that is then?

For those that have one with a fixed head, how do you get on if you want to drill/cut at an angle? Let's say it's a length of bar or flat plate, I'm guessing that you are stuffed if it's in the centre? Angle vice would only be good for working on the ends??

I found the head to (fixed) column alignment on my SX2Plus was out by about 0.15 degree which is good enough for most work. After fettling I got it to 1/10 of that. It really depends on what you are going to use it for.

I have a bigger mill with a tilting head and almost never use the facility as it is not easy to get it back exactly square. It is much quicker to set the work up at the appropriate angle.

Russell.

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by steve clark 2 on 17/01/2013 15:01:32:

I am a bit surprised about the precision aspect, how far off are these machines then?

I'm sure that I'm not the only new comer to such machines who would assume that they would be pretty much spot on! How much do you have to spend to get one that is then?

Ha Ha,

Why are you so surprised?…You have done months and months of research. Considering that you are going to the show this weekend, could I ask if you are from the South of the country, near London?

The reason I ask this is because over the years I have found more new comers from Greater London region to have the same reaction as you, along with comments similar to the ones you have made through out this post. I used to find such comments surprising, until I figured out that most such new comers had no or very little experience in what they were about to get into. Also, in all cases, all new comers of such background had expectations similar to yours, failing to realise that high precision is difficult to achieve at low price. I make these comments with the greatest of respect.

This is also the same reason I went out of my way to clarify ARCs position to Alan and Nick. I really do not want any new comer to get the wrong idea of expectations in this value for money product range. You being a prime example, with this latest comment.

In contrast, the likes of Nick and Alan come from known knowledge and skill base. So, I hope this thread makes you more aware of what to expect for your money. As I have mentioned before, mills from any supplier in this price range are general purpose hobby milling machines. They are still capable of delivering great results. There are more than 50,000+ mini-mills of different badges around the world, used by plenty, many of which have been used as they came without doing anything to them (which still surprises me, especially as I do not have such users skills). It does not mean that they are or have to be of high precision. It does not mean that they are not fit for purpose!. What skills do you have to get results out of them?

If you do not have the skills, this and other forums can help you. Also you should consider joining a club, night school, or SMEE course to help you on your way.

The above comments are being made in a positive manner, so please do not feel offended in any way.

Ketan at ARC.

[WindyParticipant @windy30762]

 

I have been watching this thread what I found very interesting that we had a supplier Ketan giving his point of view.

A pity some other suppliers with an interest in selling to home workshop owners did not get involved in giving advice on this forum instead of just wanting your money.

I apologise if other suppliers have and I had not seen them on here.

Paul

 

Edited By Windy on 17/01/2013 17:48:17

[steve clark 2Participant @steveclark2]

Well here's a question for you, these are hobby type machines right, who makes steam engine related parts for their train sets for example, I assumed that the tolerances for such parts are important so it would kind of follow that the machines would be a precision instrument??

[NJHParticipant @njh]

Steve

Define precision!

You cannot expect the same level of performance from a machine costing a few hundred pounds as you can from one costing many thousands. Most model engineers cannot afford expensive equipment but, overtime, they come to know the characteristics of their machines and make the appropriate allowances for any deficiencies. Unlike a production environment time is not of the essence. If you look through some of the older ME books you will see that the old engineers produced remarkable work with the most basic equipment. For example it is only in the last 30 years or so that the vertical milling machine has become common in the home workshop. Before that milling was carried out in the lathe where it was necessary to cope with much less rigid set-ups than are available on even the smallest of todays mills.

Set the budget for your mill, look carefully and, having decided, work with your machine, discovering its strengths and weaknesses, and make the appropriate allowances to produce the required results.

Cheers

Norman

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

What are people thinking is precision? (for amateurs)

I'm quite pleased to get accuracy of a thou and modellers needing better fits traditionally lap them to achieve that.

Commercially on smallish bits like 2mm I'm offered and happy with a tolerance of 0.02mm as any tighter costs more.

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Posted by steve clark 2 on 17/01/2013 18:04:56:

Well here's a question for you, these are hobby type machines right, who makes steam engine related parts for their train sets for example, I assumed that the tolerances for such parts are important so it would kind of follow that the machines would be a precision instrument??

Steve,

here is the nub.

Take a set of engineering drawing made by professional draftsmen for part that have to go out into industry and be made, probably in different locations.

These parts then come back and are built up into a precision article.

Those drawings will have tolerances laid out, surface finishes and sign that relate to concentricity, perpendicular and parallel.

Now we come on to the steam trains you mention. The person designing these is probably not a designer as such, it's their interest. Most of these drawing have no tolerances, limits and fits and surface finishes. In fact in the latest Nemett engine in ME it doesn't even tell you what material the part has to be made out of, steel ? alloy ?

Most hobby builder work on the fit to part routine, you bore a hole and make the shaft to fit it.

Something these hobby machines are perfectly capable off.

I have a milling machine here I regard as precision it's capable of holding 2 tenths of a thou all day BUT it cannot run all day using the same settings as during the day due to temperature, slideways warming up, etc, it alters sizes and has to be compensated for by routine checking.

BTW it cost £32,000

John S.

[alan smith 6Participant @alansmith6]

Steve,

The word "precision" is relative! A lot of precise work is turned out on machines that are well past their sell by date by superb craftsmen who have spent many years honing their skills.

Ketan has given us the gypsies warning about our expectations of his machines which are in all reality just bog standard machines supplied by the Chinese manufacturer to anybody that wants them. So looking around is probably a bit of a time waste.

Ketan has constantly done his best to explain to allcomers the facts of buying foreign made machines and by doing this he gets my vote. Rather buy from someone that makes an effort and is enthusiastic about his products than, as i`ve found, suppliers that try to pull the wool over our eyes and are polite but arrogant with it.

Although my experience gleaned during my apprenticeship in precision engineering all those years ago is a treasure to have in my subsequent life, i`m pragmatic about my expectations from the SX2. So Ketan, don`t worry, as long as you address any problems ( if any ) in a curteous and helpful manner, then I will happy.

For those modellers struggling with learning how to operate their machines and get good results, the learning curve has to be steep. Don`t be disheartened by failure but build on it until you become competent. If you buy a Chinese machine at least you have all those splendid forum contributers to give you a hand and hopefully, the back up from the supplier as well.

To reiterate, to a certain extent, working to precise limits depends on the machine operator who is at one with his machine and knows all the little quirks and fixes that add to the accurate function of the machine. As long as the alignments of the various slides and spindle are within a couple of thou or so you should have no worries, Just go for it!

Alan

[Roderick JenkinsParticipant @roderickjenkins93242]

What's precision? A thou? a micron? half an angstrom? The Mars lander got within 100m of its target. Everyone was pretty pleased with that. Tolerences are for production engineers making thousands of parts to fit thousands of other parts. Models engineers make one offs and so they make pieces to fit other pieces. For example; If you want to make a shaft to fit a bearing you turn the bearing first to something about the right size and then you turn the shaft so that it is just too big and then take off a smidgen at a time until the fit is just right. What you don't do is make everything to a drawing and then try to assemble all the bits. For almost every thing you would make in model locomotive or stationary steam or i.c. engines being able to work to 1 thou (0.02mm) will be quite good enough. I think any machine you can buy today should be good to work to this sort of accuracy. The issue with CNC machines is a bit different since they do just try to make the part to the specified dimensions – you don't, in the first instance, have the opportunity to tweak the dimensions as the program is executed.

Don't worry about precision, that way madness lies. Buy a machine and start cutting metal.

cheers,

Rod

[steve clark 2Participant @steveclark2]

Posted by Bazyle on 17/01/2013 19:29:27:

What are people thinking is precision? (for amateurs)

I'm quite pleased to get accuracy of a thou and modellers needing better fits traditionally lap them to achieve that.

Commercially on smallish bits like 2mm I'm offered and happy with a tolerance of 0.02mm as any tighter costs more.

Yes, what degree of precision was meant? I wasn't sure. Those figures you quote sound reasonable to me, I can live with that.

[steve clark 2Participant @steveclark2]

If I were to buy a mill with plastic gears/drive and wanted to convert it to belt drive I take it that this is the kit to buy, is there a stockist of such a kit in the UK?

http://www.stirlingsteele.com/beltdrive.html

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by steve clark 2 on 17/01/2013 19:49:32:

Posted by Bazyle on 17/01/2013 19:29:27:

What are people thinking is precision? (for amateurs)

I'm quite pleased to get accuracy of a thou and modellers needing better fits traditionally lap them to achieve that.

Commercially on smallish bits like 2mm I'm offered and happy with a tolerance of 0.02mm as any tighter costs more.

Yes, what degree of precision was meant? I wasn't sure. Those figures you quote sound reasonable to me, I can live with that.

Really Steve?

Having read all your comments up to now, combined with years of dealing with potential buyers, I dont really think you know what really is or insn't reasonable. If I am wrong, I apologise. As I asked before, are you from the Greater London area and have you done any milling or lathe work before? what skills do you have?. Also, you really failed to answer Neil earlier about what exactly it is you intended to do with the machine. All I have heard from you is a list of negative 'pissing in the wind' comments.

If this is how you mean to start, based on experience, there will be a list of assumptions coming from you without knowledge, which you will expect any seller to address. So, if you are from down south, in your particular case, I would suggest that you strongly consider to buy from Amadeal, or Warco, or Axminster, or Machine Mart, located in your region, which is what I think you were going to do any way. This way, when you get stuck, which I guarantee you will, you can go to your nearest dealer for assistance.

ARC recently made a mistake of 'coming across as being too helpful' to a buyer, pre-purchase. Although we were clear about everything relating to the machine including limitations, very blunt infact, we figured out post sale that we had made a mistake in this particular case. We should not have even sold him a machine, as this particular buyer 'down south' mistook our openness with someone he could call every few days to ask why the machine was made in a particular way, and if one thing was normal or abnormal or how to do something with his machine, just really questioning the 'fitness of purpose'!.

In ARCs opinion, in that persons case, the issue was the person and not 'fitness of purpose' of the machine. There is always a limit to how much a seller is prepared to discuss before it gets too much. At the end of the day, we are here to sell a machine and not to hold peoples hands. We went to the extent of tell the guy that we did not feel that the machine would ever meet his expectations, and we offered to take the machine back – an SX3, and we would refuse to get into any further discussion with him. Still he has kept the machine.

Therefore, in your particular case Steve, I think that you will be better served by someone in your region other than ARC. If you were considering to buy from us, please don't. We may be able to sell you accessories if you want. This is nothing personal, just a polite comment. I am guessing by now that even if you were considering to buy from us before, you are probably not now . Just be honest about your own limitations before trying to get answers from others, without using a negative style. Non of us know all the answers. If you ask a question in a straight way, you will get straight answers on here.

Good luck with your purchase over this weekend.

Ketan at ARC.

Edited By Ketan Swali on 17/01/2013 21:21:15

[steve clark 2Participant @steveclark2]

Ketan, really??

What a strange way to treat people, you make a lot of assumptions don’t you!

Frankly your attitude to potentially new customers stinks.

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

That's the first time I have heard being trueful stinks

[jason udallParticipant @jasonudall57142]

Don't confuse "precision" with "resolution".

Speaking for lathes. I ( at work) can set tooling to maybe 1 micron. programme a tool path to 0.1 micron. Achive "mirror like" finishes. all fine and dandy..when you measure the notionaly parralel features..you may have 10 microns of taper barrel shaped..large in middle…stock itself moves away from the tool…what price for precision?…..

Some bloke (or bloke -ess) verifing it with a mike Thats what!.

and programming a counter taper into the part…then the tool wears or the coolant "stutters" and we have a new shape again…..Milling will be the same

What precision?..Well what are you checking the part with?..the part it needs to fit? micrometer? a digital calliper? a 6" rule?….

Btw I would appriate someone like Ketan putting a honest answer and ultimatly good advice before a sale.Bravo Sir.

[alan smith 6Participant @alansmith6]

Jason has touched on an important point about measuring equipment. Beginners will have to learn about the "feel" of the measuring equipment available to them, otherwise they will not get repeatability of readings of their machined parts. Obviously it`s no good in having a precision machine if one cannot check the work produced reliably.

Here`s a tip for beginners, invest in a set of slip gauges, they aren`t that expensive second hand. Micrometers wear over their travel as most of the dimensions measured are usually within the middle range of travel. When measuring something to a few tenths of a thou, wring the slips together to give the required dimension and then check the micrometer reading so that any inaccuracy will be revealed. The most important thing about micrometers is to feel for the correct pressure to apply with the barrel. It`s easy to over wind the barrel and obtain false readings, don`t use the ratchet but get the feel by measuring a slip gauge over and over without looking at the graduations until you can hit the dimension correctly every time. This is so important.

There is also the subject of limits and fits to consider, there is no point in precision where it is not needed.

Alan

Edited By alan smith 6 on 18/01/2013 01:26:20

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by steve clark 2 on 17/01/2013 22:12:01:
Ketan, really??

What a strange way to treat people, you make a lot of assumptions don't you!

Frankly your attitude to potentially new customers stinks.

Yes really

This industry feeds me. I respect the skills and knowledge to be found on forums such as this, along with the custom its brings for ARC. We get a lot of custom from new comers who are open with us about their limitations – be they skills or budget. We guide them in our own way.

I am sorry you feel that my attitude stinks. You are entitled to your opinion, which I also respect. All I would say is you are confusing my openness with an attitude problem. Rest assured, ARC, along with many people on this forum have always tried to help new comers, especially when these new comers have been open and clear about what they want to do, and what exactly their skill limitations are.

With regards to assumptions, I have already apologised earlier. As far as I am concerned, ARC has already helped by answering your loaded questions, even though you failed to answer Neils or my questions. How is one know if you what you want a machine to do if you dont answer?. Is it possible that you want it for some business idea you have?. Oh sorry, yet another assumption, I apologise.

What ever you want to do, where ever you are from, what ever your skills limitations are, are all unknown issues. So what is one to assume?. Be honest and open about all of this, and you will find everyone bending over backwards to help you.

It is a pitty you cannot see old specific members post on here. 'Wolfie' is a good example of a new comer who has been on here for coming on one and a half years. He is always honest and open about his limitations, and I for one always like reading his posts as he develops his skills with the help of members on here. ARC has also helped him, even though the mill he uses is not from ARC.

Life is too short. The show opens today. Go and get yourself a bargain and start making some swarf. Good Luck.

Ketan at ARC.

Edited By Ketan Swali on 18/01/2013 05:21:53

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Posted by steve clark 2 on 17/01/2013 18:04:56:

Well here's a question for you, these are hobby type machines right, who makes steam engine related parts for their train sets for example, I assumed that the tolerances for such parts are important so it would kind of follow that the machines would be a precision instrument??

Hi Steve,

I promise that this will be my last post on this subject. Precision as you call it does not lie in the quality of the machine necessarily. It lies in the hands of the user, and these skills comes with experience and training. You could spend thousands on a 'quality' milling machine and still not get 'precision' if you are not skilled enough.

One of my other pastimes is cabinet making. I often get to hear the comment -'oh, I can't cut a straight line', while I can cut a precision dovetail by eye with the same saw they are using. Those novices then spend a fortune on Lie Nielson tools but still can't "cut a straight line or plane a surface flat".

Manual machines are just that – manual, you decide on the settings and you control the cut. The ability to make lovely things accurately is called craftsmanship and you can't buy that.

Best regards

Terry

[Bob PerkinsParticipant @bobperkins67044]

I've dropped a couple of posts into this, as per Terry these are my last moments.

I bought my SX2 plus from arc and received excellent service. I was limited to a budget and spent an anarokish amount of time looking at the options. Part of that was not only looking at machine specs, but looking at the type of projects that people were turning out on them. There is loads of stuff on the forums. It was clear to me that many of these individuals were streets ahead on me in skill level, but I'll catch up (one day). I bought my SX2 with an understanding of its limitations, and a broad idea of the scale and type of work I can produce on it. I'm new to the hobby and have a few ideas about the type of things I want to make, but haven't bought it to build a dedicated project or type of model. I think Ketan's comments are honest, and its refreshing in my eyes to find a supplier who would rather not sell you something than have an usatisfied customer. He is only managing customer expectation, which is difficult if your not sure what your buying. In my experience of asking questions on the forum all advice is open, honest and given with all best intentions. I have no regrets with my purchase, and have Made a few tweaks and improvements to it, but hey perhaps I'm turning into an engineer now! Watch out guys I'm coming after you!

Bob P

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Bob Perkins on 18/01/2013 08:06:49:

I think Ketan's comments are honest, and its refreshing in my eyes to find a supplier who would rather not sell you something than have an usatisfied customer. He is only managing customer expectation …

Bob P

Well said, Bob !!

I have never bought a Chinese Mill, but I do have a background in Procurement.

Ketan's integrity is self-evident and; if I was looking to buy, ARC would certainly be on my list.

MichaelG.

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