Man management

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by duncan webster on 12/07/2021 23:05:19:

When I built my last house extension I had to get the design approved before I started and the Building Inspector would come round at pre-arranged points in the build to inspect what had been done. Sounds a bit bureaucratic, but he was actually very helpful. As I understand it that's all gone, and builders get to mark their own homework. Result, all these unsaleable properties with built in defects.

Don't know where you get that Duncan, I still get the building inspector in where it's needed and yes they can be very helpful particularly if you are doing things right and not a cowboy.

Planning and Building Control are two separate departments though they do tend to talk to one another. Planning only needs to know what the basic project will look like, once you get permission (more permitted developement now does not need it) you then notify building control (and send fee) who will want a lot more detail of construction even for works that did not need planning permission and they will visit as and when called in at various stages of the work, Finally they will issue a completion certificate which any solicitor will find on a search if selling the property.

Some work can be done just by sending in a notice such as a boiler change by a Gassafe fitter, window changes by FENSA member etc where their qualifications are taken as them doing the work correctly.

Edited By JasonB on 13/07/2021 07:15:46

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

Local planning is still moderately strict in Scotland and is run by the council

It is however notorious for bias, depends who you know, depends who you get

England is partly de-regulating atm because it's so crowded down there, property owners either have or are getting various exemptions to try and speed up new accommodation to deal with the housing crisis

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57288485

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-57075080

it's the usual free market dogma scenario, The British Fudge, temporary solution today, a big mess tomorrow

Edited By Ady1 on 13/07/2021 08:03:35

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

I'd say that, like most human endeavour, it's a patchy story.

We recently bought a new-build house when we got tired of trying to overcome the issues we had with the older property we bought nearly 5 years ago. However much we spent wasn't gonna get it any nearer the shops, and fixing some of the issues would cost more than we felt comfortable spending. But it sold easily and nearly instantly, for more than asking price. There were troubles down the chain, though, which made the deal take more than 5 months to completion.

The house we bought had a really interesting and clever design on 3 floors with a lot of fitted equipment, especially in the kitchen. We'd got to know the builder, who was still taking some part in the work even in his 80s. We already knew and trusted the electrician who'd wired the houses in the development, from work he did for us in the previous house.

It was apparent that the building firm was largely a management company, subbing out almost all aspects of the work from architectural design to final finishing.

We've been in there about 6 weeks and there are really only 2 issues we've found:-

One of the loos rocked a bit on the floor and I had to tap in a tapered wooden wedge to stop it, but the only real bit of sloppy work was the fitting of the uPVC patio doors, which really looked as if no attempt at all had been made to adjust them correctly. Mercifully the internet came to the rescue and after studying a YouTube video, about an hour's fidgeting had them working nicely.

Everything else just works as it should, and the place is a delight to live in. Now I'm waiting for another jobbing builder we've learned to trust to come and cut a doorway from the hall into the integral garage.

[Peter G. ShawParticipant @peterg-shaw75338]

I too cannot really be called a model engineer, perhaps more of a tinkerer. And as others have said, I have indeed learned a lot from reading on this forum, plus having all the WSP books, plus a few other books, and every issue of MEW. In general, I do it out of interest.

As far as tradesmen are concerned, in my younger days, I did fall foul of people who should have, perhaps could have, known/done better, and as a result I ended up doing a lot of things myself. At least then I could only blame myself if something went wrong. Typically, a reel-to-reel tape recorder which came back with parts missing and no improvement; a car which was suffering from VW's attempts at something or other following Ralph Nader's expose in USA. (Unfortunately it's so long ago that I've forgotten what Nader was saying, and what VW were trying to do hence the lack of clarity.) Anyway, this car was killer, coughing and spluttering when trying to pull away at road junctions etc. It turned that it needed slightly larger jets in the carburettors – information gleaned from the storesman when the actual VW mechanics had tried twice & failed to improve!

That was in the West Riding a long time ago. Currently I'm living in West Cumbria and have found that people here that are generally very reliable. Which perhaps makes up for the earlier mishaps.

I haven't had much to do with council planning, but about 25 years ago made some changes and built a small porch, and I must say that I did find them helpful. Which brings me to a story:

I was designing & planning the porch, and had been in contact with the planners and been told quite bluntly that I must use millimetres and not inches. This I was quite happy with having some years previously deliberately built something wholly in metric. One day, whilst talking to the planner, I was told that "we're not really bothered about the odd inch or two!" Cue a short pause, and then I said "Excuse me, what are these inches you've just mentioned?" Followed by another short pause after which I couldn't stop myself from giggling. Strange to relate, but that planner became somewhat more friendly after that.

Peter G. Shaw

[Perko7Participant @perko7]

I spent most of my pre-retirement working life in a consulting engineering office designing fire protection systems. The sprinkler fitter hooking the pipes together to my design was getting about 50% higher income than I was.

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

Posted by JasonB on 13/07/2021 07:08:03:

Posted by duncan webster on 12/07/2021 23:05:19:

When I built my last house extension I had to get the design approved before I started and the Building Inspector would come round at pre-arranged points in the build to inspect what had been done. Sounds a bit bureaucratic, but he was actually very helpful. As I understand it that's all gone, and builders get to mark their own homework. Result, all these unsaleable properties with built in defects.

Don't know where you get that Duncan, I still get the building inspector in where it's needed and yes they can be very helpful particularly if you are doing things right and not a cowboy.

Planning and Building Control are two separate departments though they do tend to talk to one another. Planning only needs to know what the basic project will look like, once you get permission (more permitted developement now does not need it) you then notify building control (and send fee) who will want a lot more detail of construction even for works that did not need planning permission and they will visit as and when called in at various stages of the work, Finally they will issue a completion certificate which any solicitor will find on a search if selling the property.

Some work can be done just by sending in a notice such as a boiler change by a Gassafe fitter, window changes by FENSA member etc where their qualifications are taken as them doing the work correctly.

Edited By JasonB on 13/07/2021 07:15:46

According to building inspection you can either get approval from the council, or from an Approved Inspector, who will be paid by the developer. Probably not worth it for small/medium builder, but tempting for a big developer. As I said above, not quite marking your own homework.

 

This really has drifted off topic hasn't it

Edited By duncan webster on 13/07/2021 13:33:56

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by duncan webster on 13/07/2021 13:29:01:

Posted by JasonB on 13/07/2021 07:08:03:

Posted by duncan webster on 12/07/2021 23:05:19:

When I built my last house extension I had to get the design approved before I started and the Building Inspector would come round at pre-arranged points in the build to inspect what had been done. Sounds a bit bureaucratic, but he was actually very helpful. As I understand it that's all gone, and builders get to mark their own homework. Result, all these unsaleable properties with built in defects.

…………………………………………

According to building inspection you can either get approval from the council, or from an Approved Inspector, who will be paid by the developer. Probably not worth it for small/medium builder, but tempting for a big developer. As I said above, not quite marking your own homework.

This really has drifted off topic hasn't it

Edited By duncan webster on 13/07/2021 13:33:56

Yes does show it has not "all gone" Some councils do it themselves, others sub it our to contractors, mine is one of them but they are paid by the council not the builder/developer.

[brian jones 11Participant @brianjones11]

sadly this seems to have really gone off topic

The question was about Man management

not about managing a contractor – different problem allied to Project management

Man management

Have you been in Line management ie team leader/chargehand/corporal – <10 people

Middle management ie Dept Manager/Foreman/Captain – <50

Senior management ie Chief Engineer/Factory manager/ Colonel – <200

Top Management ie Country manager/General Manager/General – <1000

The Boss CEO ?

What training did you receive

What tools were used management metrics aka time and motion

How did you see your position in the organisation

How did you motivate your staff

What feedback mechanisms were used?

*************************

Now just to pour petrol on the fire

Hitler had a vast army/navy/airforce

He used the first form of QA viz Gestapo to inspect his organisation at every pyramid level and to root out potential subversion – ruthlessly

so you are promoted above machining/designing/engineering to getting people todo this for you

What has been your experience – if any

[Bill PudneyParticipant @billpudney37759]

I spent most of my working life in a technical environment, draftsman in a drawing office, etc etc. There most politics seemed to be outside the technical environment. It was fairly clear to me that "Work Politics" was a dangerous and cutthroat business. When I made a brief sortie into lower level management as a supervisor in an estimating department it was immediately apparent that politics was a major part of the job.  Initially all estimates were produced by either a mechanical tradesman, a PCB assembler and a buyer who produced material estimates.  Estimates were largely inspired guesswork, certainly no metrics were used.  I think I won the prize as Supervisor because I had done a Work Study course and worked as a Work Study Engineer, and so understood Work Breakdown Structures etc I did go on a training course which lasted about a week and was fairly (but not very!) useful. The day to day difference was like a wake up call. It could be reduced to "Knowledge is Power". After about five years I managed to extricate myself and found a job that was described as a Production Engineer. I had responsibilities for principally….writing manufacturing plans, design for manufacture input to new projects, equipment acquisition, redundant equipment disposal. It was an interesting and sometimes challenging task, which I did for about twenty years. The first eighteen years were good, the last two years were badly influenced by politics. In the end I was glad to retire

cheers

Bill

Edited By Bill Pudney on 13/07/2021 23:29:54

[brian jones 11Participant @brianjones11]

Yes indeed illustrates my point Bill

You become all the more jaundiced as you rise further away from your engineering vocation to find yourself overtaken by talentless toadies and political schemers barrelling along on a bandwagon in the fast lane and a few years later spot the Divisional manager, spreadsheet expert and reputation for downsizing

Engineering and politics were a lethal mix in the British Leyland saga

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Before we drift into politics which has now been brought up, I'll lock the thread.

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