Man management

[brian jones 11Participant @brianjones11]

How bad was it for you

[brian jones 11Participant @brianjones11]

Well guys we have had a very lively discussion on the question "Engineering – would you recommend this to a kid"

See CNC Shock at low pay for high skills  https://www.model-engineer.co.uk/forums/postings.asp?th=173738

Many responses came from people who were clearly salary employed most of their lives.

Now this invites the a response from the other side – being a manager or an employer

Many of you may have experience using a local tradesman to do some job on your house, plumber, electrician, roofer, builder, painter etc

You will all have seen the dirty tricks most of these cowboys getup to – its a long list and it would take dozens of pages to cover the scenarios

Suffice to say that your job has a start end point and expected completion state

Taking on an employees, your company is likely in a foreseeable continuous mode so your employee is providing services (job description). The honeymoon begins, lots of bonhonnie close up up for advice and direction yada yada (while the newbie figures out your weakness). Then job familiarity sets in and the newbie finds ways of swinging the lead. Then you try to put him on piecework with time targets and failure rates – but machines mysteriously breakdown, time measurements go wrong/missing, then comes elf n safety where he was asked to pick up a box off a trolley BUT you failed to provided training and how to handle heavy loads – worker goes sick with back ache and the doc signs him off with spine problem for 6 months sick pay – which the company has to pay and also hire a replacement body

Just a few examples of man management horrors whats been your experience

what are the solutions

 

 

 

Edited By brian jones 11 on 12/07/2021 15:15:35

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by brian jones 11 on 12/07/2021 15:13:35:

Well guys we have had a very lively discussion on the question "Engineering – would you recommend this to a kid"

See CNC Shock at low pay for high skills https://www.model-engineer.co.uk/forums/postings.asp?th=173738

Many responses came from people who were clearly salary employed most of their lives.

Now this invites the a response from the other side – being a manager or an employer

Many of you may have experience using a local tradesman to do some job on your house, plumber, electrician, roofer, builder, painter etc

You will all have seen the dirty tricks most of these cowboys getup to – its a long list and it would take dozens of pages to cover the scenarios

Suffice to say that your job has a start end point and expected completion state

Taking on an employees, your company is likely in a foreseeable continuous mode so your employee is providing services (job description). The honeymoon begins, lots of bonhonnie close up up for advice and direction yada yada (while the newbie figures out your weakness). Then job familiarity sets in and the newbie finds ways of swinging the lead. Then you try to put him on piecework with time targets and failure rates – but machines mysteriously breakdown, time measurements go wrong/missing, then comes elf n safety where he was asked to pick up a box off a trolley BUT you failed to provided training and how to handle heavy loads – worker goes sick with back ache and the doc signs him off with spine problem for 6 months sick pay – which the company has to pay and also hire a replacement body

Just a few examples of man management horrors whats been your experience

what are the solutions

Edited By brian jones 11 on 12/07/2021 15:15:35

Look closely at the chap who's doing the recruiting and find out if he's asking the right questions.

Someone who finds his people persistently 'swing the lead' should have his management skills reviewed. Excellent engineers are often rotten managers! Actually many managers are poor stuff too – it ain't easy.

Dave

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Being a good Engineer does not necessarily make for a good manager.

People don't always think or act logically, where their vested interests are at stake. What you propose may be absolutely correct, but if it spoils my perks or overtime; forget it!

The other side of the coin is the "professional" manager, who makes decisions without knowing anything about the process or the possible side effects of their decisions.

Being asked by your boss "What IS the function of a bearing in an engine"? or watching the water outlet being patted and described as the inlet manifold builds little confidence for the future of the company.

But a degree in Modern History fits the man for the job far better than a colleague with twenty years experience, in the eyes of HR.

"If the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch".

Howard

[Nick Clarke 3Participant @nickclarke3]

Why am I reminded of one of the Dilbert Principles where someone is promoted higher and higher until their incompetence no longer affects the rest of the organisation. Like much of Dilbert it is clearly tongue in cheek – until you think about it! …………….

[JAParticipant @ja]

Posted by Howard Lewis on 12/07/2021 15:49:08:

Being a good Engineer does not necessarily make for a good manager.

………………………….

Howard

Being a good manager is far more difficult than being a good engineer. I have known very few good "man" managers. Managing work is another matter.

JA

[brian jones 11Participant @brianjones11]

q

Excellent engineers are often rotten managers

uq

very true

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

Dilbert is the bible where organisations are concerned

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

I have no idea why this is a topic on a model engineering forum, where the vast majority work on their own, as hobbyists, without any particular time constraints and while safety is an important subject it does not really affect us in law.

[Former MemberParticipant @formermember12892]

[This posting has been removed]

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

Is man management not an illegal sexist statement yet?

Edited By Ady1 on 12/07/2021 19:29:47

[Frank GorseParticipant @frankgorse]

Brian,I’m fairly sure that a number of members on this forum(Jason?) are or have been in the building and related trades. You appear to dismiss them-us- all as ‘cowboys’ who get up to ‘dirty tricks’. Perhaps you would like to reconsider that ?

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

I was very fortunate to spend 18 years of my career working for a man who I had the greatest respect for as a man and manager, he was also an outstanding engineer. It was hard to find anyone who would not agree with me on both measures. These men are rare and I feel fortunate to have worked for him.

Mike

[Former MemberParticipant @formermember12892]

[This posting has been removed]

[Frank GorseParticipant @frankgorse]

The word ‘some’ is only used in the phrase‘some job’

The only possible inference from the original letter is that all local tradesmen are cowboys and most get up to dirty tricks.

[Former MemberParticipant @formermember12892]

[This posting has been removed]

[Former MemberParticipant @formermember12892]

[This posting has been removed]

[Ian PParticipant @ianp]

Posted by not done it yet on 12/07/2021 18:51:36:

I have no idea why this is a topic on a model engineering forum, where the vast majority work on their own, as hobbyists, without any particular time constraints and while safety is an important subject it does not really affect us in law.

I think that MyTimeMedia might be the only source to categorically state that that the 'majority' of users on this forum are 'hobbyists'.

I dont know how one could determine the ratio of model engineers here compared to the rest of the members but as a non model maker I certainly do not feel lonely.

Ian P

[brian jones 11Participant @brianjones11]

I am speaking from bitter experience about local tradesman – so called jobbing builders etc of the kind used by the hapless public to do repairs on their houses. In my area its a total disgrace rife with fraudsters and conmen – and they get away with it because they are left largely unsupervised and without adequate sanctions against them for shoddy work. many of my neighbours have suffered appalling financial damage from bad and illegal loft conversions for example

I tried for 6 months to find a reliable tradesman who could fit a Velux skylight window in my loft. It was an easy job on my bungalow and if I hadnt been struck down with arthritis I would have knocked this out in a morning myself – but probably a day to take extra care and check with a hose. Cut it short I trolled around some 2 dozen so called roof fitters to check their bona fides first what jobs have you done, where. Any recommendations referees, what insurance do you carry , show me a copy, what guarantees can you supply – retention money, then digging into their business address – big on web presence reluctant to disclose trading address, mostly turned out to be a private home. recognised training with Velux, no accreditation

Well due dilligence meant 50% out of business phone dead the rest quickly developed a headache and showed themselves up as chancer cowboys on the phone

Could find anyone to trust even though i was offering good money £500 for a days labour.

Thats the kind of rubbish we have for local rogue traders and dozens of my neighbours have had similar bad experiences

An honest skilled jobbing tradesman is as rare as hens teeth my way

[DiodeDickParticipant @diodedick]

I am not a model engineer ( in either sense) but I have used an old war-horse of an ex-industrial ML7R to make lots of bits for old motorcycles using techniques picked up from ME and MEW. Tools and materials were usually sourced from advertisers there, too. My formal trading on Clydeside did not really relate to home workshop work. Reading the modelling content kept me out of the bar (most of the time) when I was working away from home. One of my oppo's read western novels in these situations, and he got further up the greasy pole than me. It takes all sorts.

Model engineering is a very broad church, and whatever keeps "our" suppliers is business must be welcome.

diodedick

[Anonymous]

Posted by DiodeDick on 12/07/2021 21:52:52:

……………not a model engineer ( in either sense)……………

Me neither, far too many vices.

Andrew

[Pete RimmerParticipant @peterimmer30576]

Posted by brian jones 11 on 12/07/2021 21:38:38:

I am speaking from bitter experience about local tradesman – so called jobbing builders etc of the kind used by the hapless public to do repairs on their houses. In my area its a total disgrace rife with fraudsters and conmen – and they get away with it because they are left largely unsupervised and without adequate sanctions against them for shoddy work. many of my neighbours have suffered appalling financial damage from bad and illegal loft conversions for example

I tried for 6 months to find a reliable tradesman who could fit a Velux skylight window in my loft. It was an easy job on my bungalow and if I hadnt been struck down with arthritis I would have knocked this out in a morning myself – but probably a day to take extra care and check with a hose. Cut it short I trolled around some 2 dozen so called roof fitters to check their bona fides first what jobs have you done, where. Any recommendations referees, what insurance do you carry , show me a copy, what guarantees can you supply – retention money, then digging into their business address – big on web presence reluctant to disclose trading address, mostly turned out to be a private home. recognised training with Velux, no accreditation

Well due dilligence meant 50% out of business phone dead the rest quickly developed a headache and showed themselves up as chancer cowboys on the phone

Could find anyone to trust even though i was offering good money £500 for a days labour.

Thats the kind of rubbish we have for local rogue traders and dozens of my neighbours have had similar bad experiences

An honest skilled jobbing tradesman is as rare as hens teeth my way

The ones that have a the stuff you're requiring are working on larger projects where pre-quals are a necessity. They are there because they have that stuff. The day-traders and also-rans are left to Joe public to choose from. The ones in the mid-range sub out to the bigger ones.

If you're talking about retention money on a 500 quid bill no wonder they are getting headaches and the phone goes dead tbh.

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

When I built my last house extension I had to get the design approved before I started and the Building Inspector would come round at pre-arranged points in the build to inspect what had been done. Sounds a bit bureaucratic, but he was actually very helpful. As I understand it that's all gone, and builders get to mark their own homework. Result, all these unsaleable properties with built in defects.

[EmgeeParticipant @emgee]

Posted by duncan webster on 12/07/2021 23:05:19:

When I built my last house extension I had to get the design approved before I started and the Building Inspector would come round at pre-arranged points in the build to inspect what had been done. Sounds a bit bureaucratic, but he was actually very helpful. As I understand it that's all gone, and builders get to mark their own homework. Result, all these unsaleable properties with built in defects.

In the area I live if you apply for planning permission for any building work it is the case that you will receive a visit at various times throughout the build by the building inspector to ensure your work complies with building standards, I thought that was the case in England, perhaps Scotland and Wales have similar schemes.

Emgee

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

Ah but you can appoint your own building inspector, whose independence is guaranteed by his relying on you for getting paid. Not quite marking your own homework I will admit, but not far off

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