Loco hand pump casting from Reeves

[BufferParticipant @buffer]

Hi

I recently had a bit of credit with Reeves so I bought the Hand Pump Casting for my Don Young Black 5. I was surprised when these two small castings turned up.

Reeves are convinced that these are correct even though they are nothing like the DY Designs drawings. I told them they are not like the drawing so then they then sent me the drawing that they are photographed on but I'm not sure that's correct for the castings either. I also think some more of the drawings are missing.

My question is do any loco builders recognise this pump casting and if so is it for a DY Designs Black 5 or something else?

Also do these two pumps fit together somehow to be double acting? In the drawing the right hand end of the pump drawing seems to have a plate or something missing. Is this were the casting fit back to back?

Hope you can help.

Rich

[BufferParticipant @buffer]

Not a Don Young Black 5 hand pump but what is it?

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

It looks like a multifucnction casting having a cast on foot in case needed and an extension on the right that is works as a chucking piece or in other arrangements could hold a valve.
As to the 'missing' plate have you looked at where it is mounted. It obviously has the 6 bolt flange and probably mounts on a floor or sidewall. See tender drawing as it says under the rule.

[WearyParticipant @weary]

The drawing looks as if it shows a foot to the pump. It is partially obscured by the positioning of the steel ruler. Casting looks as if it will do the job as required by the drawing provided overall dimensions are sufficient.

Regards,

Phil

[Paul KempParticipant @paulkemp46892]

Well the note on the drawing has me confused. Make 1st pump to drawing, make 2nd less – looks like anchor links? Obscured by the rule. That sort of suggests the two pumps bolt together on the flange? In which case you have two opposed rams, how does that work with one handle? Drawing in isolation makes no sense to me but as per usual in model "drawings" they are hardly really drawings! If you took them to any half decent machine shop they would refuse to make it without proper detail and tolerances.

Paul.

[Paul LousickParticipant @paullousick59116]

An assembly drawing of the complete pump would be useful.

Could the pump be made with just one casting and a cover plate made to seal the flanged end of the first casting where the 6 threaded holes are instead of butchering the second casting ?

Paul.

Edited By Paul Lousick on 19/05/2019 23:44:47

[WearyParticipant @weary]

I had assumed that one makes two fundamentally similar pumps.

One fitted between the locomotive frames driven from an eccentric on a driven axle, hence no need for 'anchor links'. This pump to be secured to some kind of cross-brace/frame-stay using six 6BA fasteners through the end-plate. No need for 'foot'.

The second pump to be fitted in the tender and operated by hand as required ( "Emergency Hand Pump"  ). This pump to be secured using 'foot' perhaps; or maybe to a bulkhead in the tender using the same fastening method as on loco. If secured by 'foot' then a flat plate over the end secured using fasteners through the 6BA holes will do the job.

Unfortunately the notes which might clarify a little are partially obscured.

Maybe worth asking over on MECH which is more loco' oriented and has a couple of active builders of Don Young designs?

Regards

Phil

Edited By Weary on 20/05/2019 09:07:47

[NealebParticipant @nealeb]

As a DY Black 5 builder, currently working on the tender, I'm confused as well! I ordered and received the full casting set from Reeves. One of these castings looks like the pump body shown above (but only one of them). I also received a similar size casting which I cannot immediately identify. Not sure if it is anything to do with the pump but Reeves do not supply images of all the castings which can make it difficult to identify some of them.

Rather more confusing, though, is that I cannot find any tender hand pump on my drawings (as bought from Reeves) or find reference to a hand pump in the manual (which is a PDF copy of the original articles in LLAS – and I know that these are authentic as I scanned them myself from a friend's collection). Well, there are two references – one says that you don't need to make a tender panel removable unless you are fitting a hand pump, and the other tells you to use the tender hand pump to pressurise the boiler for testing. But no drawings, no build instructions for said pump. I also have the tender drawings for the Alcock Galatea/Jubilee design and I plan to put his tender body on the DY chassis, and use Alcock's hand pump design which seems to be quite nicely done.

But DY tender hand pump for Black 5? Don't know where Reeves got the idea from!

[BufferParticipant @buffer]

Now I can help you with that. What you have there is the regulator casting. Middle of sheet 9

Rich

 

Edited By Richard brown 1 on 20/05/2019 16:41:06

[BazParticipant @baz89810]

Richard, there are two very similar castings, one is a tender hand pump the other is an axle pump. The difference is the axle pump has an oval end for a stuffing box and no mounting feet, what you have are tender hand pump castings that seem to be standard to Don Young designs, I have both types of castings for use on Dons Rail Motor 2 Nealeb, what you have is top, tender hand pump casting, bottom, regulator casting but absolutely no idea what loco it’s intended for. Would post pics but not sure how to, if you want a pic send a PM and I will email you

[BufferParticipant @buffer]

Nealeb

Here is the drawing that Reeves sent me when I asked for one. Its not Black 5 and I think its only half the drawing as it doesn't show how you fit these things together.

Baz the Black 5 doesn't have an axle pump it uses two injectors. These casting are identical and appear to fit together some how but I am clueless how. Not even sure if they are a Don Young design for something else. I will PM you for the pics.

Thanks

Rich

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Reckon it means mount the pumps back to back:

The spacers are used to fit the connecting links (oops called it coupler in my drawing) into the slot cut in the other piston, necessary because there's only one rod to take the pump handle. Moving the pump handle backwards and forwards would cause one pump to blow while the other sucked.

Presumably fitted in the tender.

Dave

[BufferParticipant @buffer]

Dave

That's thinking outside the box, well my one anyway. It never occurred to me that they could be like this.

Shame its not just one pump though obviously twice the work.

Thanks for taking the time to draw this up.

Have you shot any more machines yet?

Rich

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Richard brown 1 on 20/05/2019 18:28:15:

Dave

That's thinking outside the box, well my one anyway. It never occurred to me that they could be like this.

Shame its not just one pump though obviously twice the work.

Thanks for taking the time to draw this up.

Have you shot any more machines yet?

Rich

Nurse has ordered me to stop shooting machines. Apparently it's very naughty.

You wouldn't have to fit both pumps I suppose? I guess the Black 5 is a big engine and Reeves recommend two pumps to make sure you can get enough water into it in an emergency. I see from their website that some engines get one pump casting while others get two. Interesting that NealeB's engine only got one casting – maybe you've got the souped up version!

Hats off to both of you. I don't have the skills or the patience to build a engine, much though I see the attraction. Must be fantastic to drive a loco you built yourself.

Dave

[Paul KempParticipant @paulkemp46892]

Dave, that's a good wheeze, nice bit of thinking there, not keen on the idea though but I am sure you have cracked it, especially as we can now see the full note which suggests you are right. I am intrigued the side view shows a 3/4" bore, there is no apparent significant step shown in the bore of the body but the end view shows a bore size of 1/2"?

Paul.

[Clive Brown 1Participant @clivebrown1]

Posted by Paul Kemp on 20/05/2019 19:54:42:. I am intrigued the side view shows a 3/4" bore, there is no apparent significant step shown in the bore of the body but the end view shows a bore size of 1/2"?

Paul.

The 3/4" dimension refers to the cylinder OD. Seemingly an extraordinary design. What's wrong wth increasing the bore to 5/8", which would have given plenty of capacity IMO?

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

With a large single acting pump the tender body rocks violently in one direction only but a balanced design is more gently on the mechanisms.

[NealebParticipant @nealeb]

Baz – thanks for the note. Yes, I have identified the regulator on the drawings. When the castings originally arrived I did check them all against the list, but that was a while ago! What I didn't check was whether there was actually a tender hand pump on the drawings; looks like Reeves have added this of their own accord.

[Paul LousickParticipant @paullousick59116]

The pump drawing does not show a stuffing box or seal on the piston. Won't it leak when under pressure ?

Paul.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Paul Lousick on 20/05/2019 23:32:13:

The pump drawing does not show a stuffing box or seal on the piston. Won't it leak when under pressure ?

Paul.

I thought that too. Maybe it's an example of fit-for-purpose engineering? Reliable simplicity of an emergency pump might be more valuable than leak-proofing. Perhaps a plain piston is less likely to jam than a stuffing box, and it can't lose pressure through a leaky piston seal.

I believe these pumps are used when boilers are running scary dry because the injectors have failed. Faced with that crisis the driver may not be too concerned about a bit of wet in the tender or the state of his underwear.

Dave

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

Tender hand pump is in the water space, so a bit of a leak doesn't matter, it just goes back where it came from. Of course no good reason not to fit O rings in the rams

[Brian OldfordParticipant @brianoldford70365]

IIRC LBSC's tender hand pumps tended to rely on nothing more that a few turns of graphite rope in a groove near the inner end of the ram. Simple but effective.

[Author]

Posts