Insulation

[Tractor manParticipant @tractorman]

Hi all.
My new sectional concrete workshop has been erected today and I am looking for anyone’s experience of insulating such a structure to make it more livable in winter.
My thoughts are to line the steel roof with kingspan boards and similar with the walls. Then skin this with ply wood.
If anyone has any views or suggestions please let me know. Mick

[Tractor manParticipant @tractorman]

How to warm a garage

[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

See the previous thread here.

[Tractor manParticipant @tractorman]

Thanks Muzzer. I had an idea there would be previous chats about this. Just looking at sprayed foam application. Depends on suitability and cost. Will let you know how it pans out. Mick

[Phil H1Participant @philh196021]

Mick,

What kind of foam is it? I'm interested for an outside building?

Phil H

[Tractor manParticipant @tractorman]

Hi Phil.
Early stages of research at present. There are a few firms who do sprayed insulation and I’m trting to.get a quote to.compare with insulation board. Mick

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Do consider the fire hazard with some sprayed foam.

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

About twenty years ago got the house insulated with sprayed in foam, it has a fire retardent in it, I think that is a requirement here in NZ.

Ian S C

[Bodgit Fixit and RunParticipant @bodgitfixitandrun]

I've just done my house with celotex board. Very cost effective and easy to use. It's foil backed so add tape over the joins and you have a vapor barrier. it comes in various thicknesses. I used 25mm on my stairs and 50mm over the rest of the house. Space loss is minimal and because you can do it in small affordable stages you don't fall foul of building regs either. I did check with the local authority on that one.

I'm considering doing the same in my shed.

Edited By Bodgit Fixit and Run on 23/11/2016 09:48:28

[JonParticipant @jon]

Done mine with the tongue and groove floor board come in 8ft lengths. Think rawl bolted battons to walls leaving air space between the brick and board around 1 1/2" or 2". Also keeps the noise down and can bolt racking to it through the battons.

Works out far cheaper than cellotex or similar and no wasted wall loss. My case in that would need another similar size just house whats on racking.

[brickyParticipant @bricky]

Spray insulation can cause some people to have an adverse reaction to it.I have a friends who built their own barge,they had the insulation sprayed onand boarded over.She can no longer spend time on the boat as she is always ill after a weekend aboard.So be aware of the risks associated with this form of insulation.

Frank

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Are you sure she is not 'sea sick'? Canals can be a bit rough at times

But agreed urea formaldehyde foams were a bit of a problem at times.

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

When I did the sums for our central heating I was surprised by the R value of real parquet flooring. The house has solid floor. It's due to the fact that wood doesn't conduct heat very well.

I would have thought that the tongue and groove solution and a small gap would work well if it sealed some how. It's the gap that makes double glazing work. Or fill the gap with some form of insulation, even better. Chip board or plywood might work out cheaper.

Polystyrene foam is dirt cheap to make but as we can insulate our houses with it buying it is costly. It's pretty easy to tease out loft insulation. It might be possible to get hold of the small polystyrene foam balls that are used in some concrete foundations to keep their weight down. It's rather expensive in fishing tackle shops, some fishers use it to make hook lengths buoyant.

I believe there is also some sort of board that is used under flooring for insulation but have no idea what it's called. It must be toughish stuff. They either put it under the concrete or on top of it followed by a screed. As it's used for house building I would have thought it must be cheap.

I think I would have gone for a wooden structure. I had a shed once where they had lined the framing with builders paper and then ship lapped it. It was easy to keep warm and dead dry. It would be even better if skinned inside.

John

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[Simon MayorParticipant @simonmayor31041]

For what it is worth, and not strictly insulation, last winter I found a dehumidifier borrowed from my sister excellent at creating a dry atmosphere which was relatively warm. So far this year having bought a 'cheap' one I have been very disappointed, despite it being rated at 10 litres a day it only produces about a litre a week if that.

Regards,

Simon.

[mechman48Participant @mechman48]

Hi Tractor man. See my short thread …

http://www.model-engineer.co.uk/forums/postings.asp?th=35614

George.

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

I think that a dehumidifier loses its ability to work as the temperature drops below about 5deg. Mine starts working well when I put my heater on and the temperature starts rising.

Mike

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

I came across this stuff recently. Lots of reviews suggest that it works. I thought I had seen a site that stated the equivalent rock wool thickness but can't find it. Not sure I believed the figure anyway. The paper is 3mm thick.

**LINK**

John

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[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

John

Here's a view of the "Recticel" insulation fitted under the slab we had laid a month or so ago. It's basically polyurethane foam with aluminium foil on the surfaces and goes between the slab and the hardcore. This is to meet building regs insulation requirements for living areas – the area front left will be a dining / sun room. The Visqueen DPM goes under the concrete slab.

The steel mesh is to strengthen the rest of the slab where machine tools will reside but it seemed rude not to use up what was left in case we have a heavy dining table – or perhaps a very large turkey.

In my experience, that 3mm polystyrene layer you mentioned is intended to reduce heat loss, particularly behind radiators but one downside is that the wallpaper is then very prone to bruising and damage. Also, you can't just paint over it IIRC, as it doesn't wet easily and the texture shows through.

Murray

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Tractorman – do you have any details on the workshop supplier? I'm assuming it is not just a garage. I have only found one supplier with details online.

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

In my experience, that 3mm polystyrene layer you mentioned is intended to reduce heat loss,

That is precisely what all insulation is designed to do. Insulation, per se, will never heat anything; it will only reduce the rate of heat transfer from warmer to cooler side.

That advert is a little lacking in detail. It appears that it will transfer 12W per square metre per K. While that may well aid the room warming up (air to warm and not the cold substrate of the walls), that 65% could well be derived from covering internal walls, not just the more important external ones. Not decrying insulation, as any is better than nothing, but 3mm is only going to help a little. Remember warming still requires heat input – and the insulation only helps to slow the loss of the heating energy supplied.

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

The paper can be decorated Muzzer but they advise the use of their fibre paper as well. There is more info on it on their web site

**LINK**

Not much though and I doubt if it's polystyrene but may be. As we do have solid walls it may be of interest in one room at some point. One external wall will be insulated with kitchen units.

I mentioned the stuff used on concrete slabs earlier. That is of interest as we will be building something small onto the house at some point. A builder mentioned that sometime it's installed on top of the slab and building inspectors views on the subject vary. I think I would prefer it on top but it probably adds to cost as I believe a screed is then laid on top of it. Reason – it can take a fair old while for concrete slab to warm up.

For a workshop all sorts of things could be used. Just what ever and some sort of vapour barrier. Even that on it's own made a huge difference to the wooden shed I mentioned even though it was just builders brown paper – it has a sort of wax covering on one side. These days all sorts of materials are available for that. But as I mentioned I would favour timber over concrete for the building. But if the heat flow through thin sectional concrete walls can be slowed down condensation will probably go away.

John

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Edited By Ajohnw on 04/12/2016 15:15:26

[Tractor manParticipant @tractorman]

Hi bazyle. I bought the building from lidget compton who are based in thurnscoe yorkshire. But the install nationwide thru a network of agents. I will post some images later.
It’s 7’6″ high so fits my highest mill and I just opted for a wide personnel door rather than up and over garage door. 18 foor by 12 foot eternal size with a plastic coated metal roof. Upvc window. Cost ?3,500

[Nigel McBurney 1Participant @nigelmcburney1]

Floor slab with mesh on previous page, if the mesh is laid flat on the insulation how is it going to reinforce the concrete? I would have thought that the mesh should be propped up clear of the base surface so that the mesh is central to the thickness of the slab, I saw a mesh reinforcement being laid a few years ago for a shop base and the mesh was propped up with moulded plastic raisers,,For my septic tank base we poured 3 ins of concrete,laid the one sheet of reinforcing then added another three inches. On my bungalow extension the floor was beam and block,with a layer of polythene then 100 mm insulation,another layer of polythene, then 75 mm screed reinforced with light mesh, my workshop has 50mm of chipboard on the floor,an inner and outer skin of 16 mm tongue and groove timber ,with building grade polythene under the outer skin with fibreglass in the 50mm cavity, ceiling is 12mm plasterboard,100mm of fibreglass ,then 12mm ply clad with corrugated iron,plus double glaze windows ,that keeps me warm and I used it daily for 20 years to earn a crust.If doing it again I would use Celotex all round,buy the best insulation,some of the cheaper stuff is not so fire retardant .

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

re mesh. There are youtubes showing a sloppy mix put on then a hook pushed in to yank the mesh up a bit at least around the edges.

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Probably some with fibres or s/s needles incorporated in the mix to do away with a single reinforcement mesh in garage bases, etc. Mine went in over 20 years ago and is still in one piece.

But so is the first slab, laid in 1978. No reinforcement and prolly only a 25 Newton mix.

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