Identifying a vintage lathe

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

Yes that picture gave an innacurate bedstock situation

Unfortunately I was right about your headstock, it's basically a wood lathe headstock when there's no backgear, slow speed high torque things like thread cutting are far more difficult

Nicholas looks right about it's provenance, he's even sawed off part of the rear lug to make that sheet metal cover fit snugly

Perhaps the lathe was adapted for woodwork, which is very messy indeed

Edited By Ady1 on 23/09/2022 10:27:21

[Haydn CallowParticipant @haydncallow19480]

Hi, thanks for all the reply’s.,

when you say Back gear, do you mean the part with the very large pulley that the motor drives via a V belt and a couple of pulleys that drive the head stock…….I think what’s happened is at some point in its history a very substantial bench has been made for this ( I have it) and the lathe bolts to the bench and then there are all sorts of steel frames that bolt to the back of the bench to carry the motor and back gear..

photos to follow… I’ll try and get them the right way up.

[Haydn CallowParticipant @haydncallow19480]

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Strictly speaking it isn't a wood lathe headstock just a standard one that has had bits sawn off. – the front part of the backgear guard and the rear arms for the layshaft. Headstocks do appear from time to time on ebay.. You can still get a lot done without backgear and some modern lathes don't have it nor the old Drummond roundbed.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Haydn Callow on 23/09/2022 12:51:46:

…

photos to follow… I’ll try and get them the right way up.

If you can't fix it by orienting the camera (which doesn't always work as expected), the sure fire method is to edit the image before uploading with a photo-editor. May not be necessary to change anything – just open and save the image – depends on the editor.

The underlying problem is digital cameras and software have a number of different ways of deciding orientation and sometimes get confused. Most photo-editors tag the image 'a human said this way up' on save, which is authoritative.

With my moderator hat on, I usually rotate obviously wrong photos, but only if I have time to fix the damage if the rotate goes wrong! Every so often rotating messes up the formatting of the whole thread. It's a mystery…

Dave

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Strictly back gear is built into the headstock and uses gears not belts and pulleys. You can use a seperate shaft and pulleys to achieve a similar result.

Neil

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

Haydn –

"Back-gear" is a low-ratio gearing on the headstock itself, used when extra low spindle speed is necessary, especially in screw-cutting.

Only, your lathe has lost it, unless it is all in the assorted bits that came with it.

The holes in lugs on the back of the headstock show where it may have been fitted -but the spindle seems to have nowhere for its back-gear wheels.

It would show as a large gear on the chuck end of the spindle, and a smaller one at the other end, but both inside the headstock. They would have been matched by two gears on a shaft mounted on rearwards extensions (bolted on, on this machine) of the headstock; with an arrangement for engaging / disengaging them, and for disconnecting the larger spindle-gear from the spindle to allow it to work.

.

That separate assembly with the pulleys is the Counter-shaft, acting as the primary speed-reduction from the motor, and carrying the speed-change pulleys. With the back-gear lost you could replace it by additional belt-gearing. It would be feasible to make a new back-gear, but not easy, and a lot of work – then you'd need make up a set of change-wheels either with additions fully-compatible with the existing ones, or all-new.

Unless you intend cutting many, long, large threads, it is perfectly possible and indeed not unusual, often even advantageous, to do so by slacking the drive-belts and rotating the spindle by hand-crank. Remember to remove the handle before using the motor again! Myfords do sell a mandrel-handle for their lathes but it won't necessarily fit this one. Various designs for making them are in the model-engineering literature, and can be adapted to the specific machine. The basis is an expanding collet a bit like a masonry-bolt.

.

It is sad to see an old lathe damaged by some previous owner, as appears here. It is very hard to imagine why he removed (and lost?) the back-gear, and cut off that lug on the front of the headstock. If it was to allow fitting a new belt-guard, the motive is good but the method poor!

I think the forked lug still at the other end was for a reversing-pinion used when cutting left-hand threads.

[Haydn CallowParticipant @haydncallow19480]

Nigel,

thank you for such a informative reply….I have a Myford ML7 and that is complete….I understand now where and what a back gear is….I doubt I will ever need it…..I bought this lathe as a basket case and I’m hoping to get it sorted over the winter…if I decide to sell it I suppose what has been pointed out will reduce the value….however it came with 3 good chucks, a new half hp motor and other bits….I paid £200 so doubt I’ll lose on it and I may keep it.

[Haydn CallowParticipant @haydncallow19480]

I do have the back gear. As said, everything has been modified so it all goes together on the custom made base unit.

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

It will still turn stuff ok and you can use the myford for making bits/techie stuff

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

I actually retap my Drummonds for metric hex bolts/cap head screws if anything needs done nowadays

The holes are all deep and cast iron taps very easily

6mm in the saddle area, 8mm or 10mm would probably do those headstock holes

(will take cover in the corner now)

[Haydn CallowParticipant @haydncallow19480]

That’s exactly what I did this morning, changed the 4 threads that the head stock bolts into….now metric and all good

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

Errr…. why change the threads at all?

If the original fasteners are all there and serviceable, and the female threads in the castings have not been badly damaged, there is no need. It is still possible to buy BSW / BSF screws though admittedly not so easily now, and it not that hard to make them!

I did so not very long ago to make longer square-headed gib screws for my Drummond shaper, so as to accommodate lock-nuts. The bar stock I used is actually 8mm square but by chance I have an old Thiel machine-tool spanner of that size. Nevertheless I should one day shave the screw-heads down to a Whitworth-size, or at least 5/16" AF, The lock-nuts are of correct BS hexagon.

You risk ending up with weakened parts where you have to open the holes up to take a new thread entirely, or weakened "duplex" threads. Even without that you could still then have a machine with a mixture of thread-standards, which is not good.

I prefer too, on a vintage machine, to keep as much as possible original; and if making accessories for it, to use compatible threads so I am not having to search two lots of spanners.

[Haydn CallowParticipant @haydncallow19480]

I’ve sorted the gears out, I have :-

2×30

1×35

1×38

1×45

1×50

1×60

they all have a peg sticking out and a hole so they fit together.

non have a cutout for a woodruff key. The end of the lead screw has a woodruff slot so I’m assuming that’s missing. Also missing are the spindles the gears turn on…..anyone out there got a pattern or a drawing / Photo of one? Also the size of the lead screw gear.

thanks

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi Haydn, there is a user manual for the Drummond M type Machine Manuals it states all the change gears that were supplied as standard. The one on the leadscrew will depend on what feeds you will require, but it's very often the larger ones.

Regards Nick.

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

I don't know how the lead-screw's driving gear is mounted on that particular lathe, but normally it is one of the change-wheels as you have listed above; depending on the screw-thread or fine self-acting feed you select.

I've tried a few sample sums with those change-wheels, and assuming an 8TPI lead-screw, but was unable to find combinations of them for more than one or two standard threads; though as you've a Myford lathe presumably you have all its change-wheels so can use that for screw-cutting?

30-idler-45 would give 12TPI.

30-idler-60: 16TPI

You can (with their spindles!) make a compound wheel-train and I think the second slot on the arm will allow a third stage, so more threads might be possible. I am not sure about a fine self-acting feed though. I created an 'Excel' spreadsheet to form tables for my EW lathe (25-65 teeth X 5-tooth increments.)

If you wanted to add further wheels, I don't know the DP and bores but the pressure-angle might be 14.5º. They would mesh with the more common 20º gears but not very happily, encouraging undue wear.

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

You're going to need all sorts of info to rebuild things

**LINK**

These guys are the Drummond users group

[robjon44Participant @robjon44]

Not a Pools Special, I have one, a Pools '38 Special which has a base under the headstock end & a foot under the tailstock & according to Lathes.co. uk is a special edition in that it has a hinged countershaft, the only one fitted with one as standard I believe, as a historical note, a lifetime ago paperboys used to frequent the housing estate where I Iived selling the Nottingham Evening Post newspaper which had an advert for Pools Tools at the righthand end of the banner at the top, if I remember correctly they were made by firm called Slack & Parr.

Bob H

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

The change gears are compounded, and driven by the pins, in the same way as the Myford ML1, 2 ,3 and 4 which came afterwards, following the same design. The holes don't go all the way through to prevent the pins falling out.

On the Myfords, the gears were driven by driving collars which were secured to the Spindle and Leadscrew by 1/4 BSF grubscrews and drove the gears by the same 3/32" pins.

Howard

[Haydn CallowParticipant @haydncallow19480]

Worked out how the motor mounts onto the base unit. Now I have to work out how the (I think it’s called ) counter shaft is mounted….I should then get the lathe turning……the last photo shows the ( banjo ) where all the gears need to go to get the lead screw turning….I’m going to have to get a cog on the end of the spindle .a cog on the end of the lead screw and then try and connect them with other cogs….I don’t have any ‘axels ‘ to mount the intermediate cogs on so any photos or drawings would be a big help. thanks in advance

[Haydn CallowParticipant @haydncallow19480]

Sorry , photos in wrong order…..

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi Haydn, three photos below, first is the Gear train, second is the Leadscrew end and the third is the Spindle end. None of the change wheels have a keyway cut into them and are all driven by two pins in all of the change wheel gears and the ones mounted onto the banjo, just have a straight pin to fit the bore of the wheels, just a tad longer the thickness of two of the wheels. The pins have a threaded portion, long enough to pass through the banjo with a nut and washer. The front of the pins are drilled to take a sprung split pin type of thing, fixed into the caps that can be seen in the gear train photo. There is a collar with two drive holes, same as the wheels on both the spindle and the leadscrew and these are held in place by a grub screw, the one on the spindle has a small flat and the one on the leadscrew is a keyway.

Sorry, I forgot to take a photo of the sprung split pin and cap, but can do one on Monday if needed.

Regards Nick.

[Haydn CallowParticipant @haydncallow19480]

Lovely, thanks….can I be a real pain and ask the size of each gear..?

[Haydn CallowParticipant @haydncallow19480]

Hi again,

looking at your very detailed photo of your gears/banjo…..my banjo looks a different shape to yours so what you have mau not be possible.

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi Haydn, I think you'll find the banjos are the same, mine is just swung round clockwise compared to yours, anyway in the photo below I have shown the change wheel teeth numbers and the OD dimensions of the change wheels that are set-up on my lathe, I don't know why they are this way as it's just how they were when I bought the machine some years ago.

The next photo shows the extended change wheel pin that is mounted onto the fork on the headstock, which is carrying the 50 and 30 tooth wheels in the above photo and has the dimensions, with the exception of the screwed portion through the fork with a nut and washer on the other side, and also shows the hole which the sprung pin goes into.

This is the sprung pin that holds the change wheels onto their pins, these appear to be turned from a sold bar and just slotted.

This is just an unused change wheel pin with the sprung pin just entered into the hole in the change wheel pin, which can be seen at the bottom-right in the top photo.

Hope all this helps.

Regards Nick.

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