Grumpy old men

[KWILParticipant @kwil]

I like Frances IoM's "come over", reminds me of the Orcadian "ferry leaper" meaning not an islander, whilst describing the island as Mainland Orkney.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Howi on 12/10/2020 09:25:21:

language is defined by common usage so will inevitably become corrupted as a lot of common words of today are, simples init like.

Correct, but only Grumpy Old Men equate change with corruption!

Old Men have been Grumpy since Adam and I think the reasons are unhealthy. We fear change because it means power is slipping away to the next generation. We don't like the insecurity caused when our views and experience become irrelevant. So rather than admit we can't be trusted to go shopping without cocking it up, we revert to forcefully believing what made sense in our youth still applies, forgetting we changed much of it ourselves whilst middle aged!

Everything we don't understand becomes hateful; young people, technology, entertainment, economics, language, liberalism, the rise and fall of industries, fashions, new skills, new jobs and changing tides in the affairs of men.

I'd rather be remembered as Mr Cheerful than a sour old f*rt, stuck in the past, set in my ways, and full of angry opinions that everyone apart from my contemporaries know to be inappropriate or foolish. So I'm trying not to make others miserable, not always successfully.

Life is short, enjoy it while you can. It's what workshops are for.

Dave

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

It's easy to forget that the grammar and definitions in any language are only an attempt to document how people use it, not rules to control how they use it*.

Neil

* The Academie Francaise might disagree.

[CirclipParticipant @circlip]

Submarines are Boats, the rest are Targets.

Chris H. Re shut up and listen, I thought it was only my wife that does this.

And thanks to the inadequacies of THIS site in not having post numbers, those who insist in replying with at times, with total Photos and verse from the posting.

Regards Ian.

[Guy LambParticipant @guylamb68056]

And another thing!

People who say " can I get" instead of "can I have"

If I was asked so, I would probably say "no, you may not get it, I will get for you"

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 12/10/2020 10:52:12:

Posted by Howi on 12/10/2020 09:25:21:

language is defined by common usage so will inevitably become corrupted as a lot of common words of today are, simples init like.

Correct, but only Grumpy Old Men equate change with corruption!

Old Men have been Grumpy since Adam and I think the reasons are unhealthy. We fear change because it means power is slipping away to the next generation. We don't like the insecurity caused when our views and experience become irrelevant. So rather than admit we can't be trusted to go shopping without cocking it up, we revert to forcefully believing what made sense in our youth still applies, forgetting we changed much of it ourselves whilst middle aged!

Everything we don't understand becomes hateful; young people, technology, entertainment, economics, language, liberalism, the rise and fall of industries, fashions, new skills, new jobs and changing tides in the affairs of men.

I'd rather be remembered as Mr Cheerful than a sour old f*rt, stuck in the past, set in my ways, and full of angry opinions that everyone apart from my contemporaries know to be inappropriate or foolish. So I'm trying not to make others miserable, not always successfully.

Life is short, enjoy it while you can. It's what workshops are for.

Dave

… is the correct answer. However, I think it should be added that – possibly owing to the speed of technological and economic change – the current rate of change is higher than for previous generations.

It took many decades for the telephone to permeate society fully, only a couple for mobiles to become commonplace, and now we see multiple social media platforms leapfrogging each other in popularity in months.

TV adverts used to be for actual products like beer and fish fingers – now it's made up of infantilising stories about comparison websites for insurance costs, abstraction upon abstraction – no wonder some people get confused, some grumpy and some lose all track of what we might think of as reality.

Think I'll just go and machine something…

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

As many of us will qualify for the old man part we are left with the choice to be grumpy or not. As youths most of us will have been at odds with our parents over something, music, fashion and timekeeping are popular points of disagreement. One thing I do not understand is the resistance to making a phone call to make an arrangement, a text has its place but to make a mutually convenient meeting is much easier with a phone call.

Mike

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 12/10/2020 10:59:44:

It's easy to forget that the grammar and definitions in any language are only an attempt to document how people use it, not rules to control how they use it*.

Neil

* The Academie Francaise might disagree.

Fowler's Modern English Usage has been my guide for 50 years, and it gives Grammar a jolly good kicking. Almost a century ago HW Fowler wrote:

"It has become fashionable to talk disrespectfully of grammar – a natural reaction from the excessive reverence formerly paid to it. The name Grammar School remains to remind us that the study of Latin grammar was once thought to be the only path to culture. We took a long time to realize that there is not much sense in trying to apply the rules of a dead synthetic language to a living analytical one; perhaps we have not yet quite abandoned the attempt."

Then he quotes J W Hales, who died in 1914 aged 78: 'The vulgar grammar-maker, dazzled by the glory of the ruling language, knew no better than to transfer to English the scheme that belonged to Latin. What chance had our poor mother-tongue in the clutch of this Procrustes?' (Procrustes was the metal-worker who cut off legs so people would fit into his iron bed.)

Just in case a pro-grammarian missed the point of the entry, it concludes 'see FETISHES and SUPERSTITIONS'. In Fowler split infinitives are a fetish, and 'It is wrong to end a sentence with a preposition' is a superstition.

Dave

 

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 12/10/2020 13:29:05

[Bill DawesParticipant @billdawes]

My youngest son (31) says can I get, as do most of similar generation, I always say can I or could I have.

My biggest irritation is the way the news media (mainly TV) have behaved over the last few months. They sit there in their cosy studios, probably in no danger of losing their jobs (self preservation?) being highly paid to pontificate on why everything is wrong, do they ever go home and think was there any point to my days work and thank god I am not in the position of having to make decisions knowing that whatever it is will not suit somebody, that somebody will be gleefully seized upon by the media and will reel out everybody that has a complaint, all the experts who disagree with other experts, all the scenarios, making intensive use of their retrospective crystal ball that all the media have.

After the first few months of Covid news, which I devoured intently, I felt myself becoming more and more depressed so suddenly decided I could not stand it any more. Confine myself now to the odd news broadcsast to keep up with the 'facts'.

I have a saying, 'I am a very sociable person,just don't like people'

Bill D.

[Steve NeighbourParticipant @steveneighbour43428]

Why do the so called 'generation X or is it Y which I think includes my 'kids' (they're all in their mid – late 30's now) insist on always sending text messages, whats app or the dreaded face book rubbish to make any arrangements or organise everything instead of picking up the @%&$ phone and calling to discuss it ??

I will ask my eldest daughter "what time shall we come over ?" to be abruptly told "I sent you a whats app dad" . . .

I think I am (already am) a technophobic grumpy old man

We will have a whole genration in years to come who will revert to the grunts and snorts of our cave dwelling ancestors if this continues, and will have lost the art of conversation.

Now where did I put my pen, glasses and car keys

Steve

Edited By Steve Neighbour on 12/10/2020 13:34:50

[MK_ChrisParticipant @mk_chris]

Not a mention of the dreaded and irritating Background Music on the Radio (Wireless ?), the TV (abbreviation with no explanation ?) or YouTube.
For example. During a Fred Dibnah programme the “music” is from the machines and I strongly resent it being drowned out by a background racket.

Thinking about “I'm well or I'm good”. I prefer the “never ask an older person how they are”.
The blighters (i.e. me) usually give a nice long boring explanation.
Thank you for the Grauniad reference Neil. Well said.

Now back to my treadle powered machines and my Middle English dictionary.

Chris.

[Harry WilkesParticipant @harrywilkes58467]

Posted by Bill Dawes on 12/10/2020 13:33:01:

My youngest son (31) says can I get, as do most of similar generation, I always say can I or could I have.

My biggest irritation is the way the news media (mainly TV) have behaved over the last few months. They sit there in their cosy studios, probably in no danger of losing their jobs (self preservation?) being highly paid to pontificate on why everything is wrong, do they ever go home and think was there any point to my days work and thank god I am not in the position of having to make decisions knowing that whatever it is will not suit somebody, that somebody will be gleefully seized upon by the media and will reel out everybody that has a complaint, all the experts who disagree with other experts, all the scenarios, making intensive use of their retrospective crystal ball that all the media have.

After the first few months of Covid news, which I devoured intently, I felt myself becoming more and more depressed so suddenly decided I could not stand it any more. Confine myself now to the odd news broadcsast to keep up with the 'facts'.

I have a saying, 'I am a very sociable person,just don't like people'

Bill D.

Bill have to agree with you about the news media there are those maimly working for the BBC whom refer to people by the surnames I could recall a long story about this bad habit but I will not the forum members, getting back to using just surnames they refer to the prime minister as Johnson like him or not it should be Prime Minister or Mr Johnson .

[mechman48Participant @mechman48]

Can you 'borrow me' instead of 'can I borrow' or.. will you lend me..

same with 'you are joking me' instead of 'you are kidding me' or 'are you joking/kidding'.

George.

[Brian Baker 2Participant @brianbaker2]

"Voted in" instead of "elected"

[DustyParticipant @dusty]

What is the point of getting old if you cannot be grumpy, it is expected of you, I am not one to disappoint . It also engenders lively conversation where differing views can be aired.

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

As I keep telling SWMBO, I'm not grumpy, I have an excess of righteous indignation

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

I think the “can I get” is an American import, let’s blame them.

Mike

[10ba12baParticipant @10ba12ba]

People who wave their hands about when talking…..particularly "presenters".

[Bill DawesParticipant @billdawes]

As if to illustrate what I mean, listening to pm on radio 4 (pretty highbrow for a brummie) on Boris's latest announcement, every opinion ranging from too much, too little, attacking the working classes of the north, unnecessary, essential, the problem is old people-don't penalise the young you can't stop everybody from dying and on and on. Now you could argue that it is the media's job to present all views but it is the way the media seems to relish stirring things up, particularly the BBC.

Just watching rerun of Boris on BBC1 at 7 pm, a member of the public asked him what did he envisage for Christmas, really how is anyone supposed to know that.

How is any government supposed to cope with that.

I have had my say now so will shut before I get accused of getting political.

Bill D

[Frances IoMParticipant @francesiom58905]

I wonder how 10ba12ba manages to communicate with an Italian – as for use of Surnames quite common in academic writing when referring to authors of referenced papers.

[Jon LawesParticipant @jonlawes51698]

Life is pretty sweet if we have the time and energy to get upset about the little things. I doubt those picking their possessions out of the rubble in war torn parts of the world are worried about the correct use of a pronoun.

Let's be grateful for the fact that our niggles and worries are very, very minor in the grand scheme of things.

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

Posted by 10ba12ba on 12/10/2020 19:18:19:

People who wave their hands about when talking…..particularly "presenters".

Not a new thing. Magnus Pyke used to do that, so did David Bellamy and they are both dead.

Martin

[Ron ColvinParticipant @roncolvin83430]

Posted by 10ba12ba on 12/10/2020 19:18:19:

People who wave their hands about when talking…..particularly "presenters".

I find myself being particularly infuriated with radio presenters who wave their hands about when talking.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Just to make everyone really grumpy…

Would anybody be interested in a 'virtual' gathering of forum members using Zoom?

Just a 30-40 minute chat to say hello and see both familiar and unfamiliar faces.

Maybe everyone gets an opportunity to wave an example of what they have been making at the camera and describe it?

Neil

[peak4Participant @peak4]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 13/10/2020 13:11:00:

Just to make everyone really grumpy…

Would anybody be interested in a 'virtual' gathering of forum members using Zoom?

Just a 30-40 minute chat to say hello and see both familiar and unfamiliar faces.

Maybe everyone gets an opportunity to wave an example of what they have been making at the camera and describe it?

Neil

So long as you don't mind observers without webcam/microphones
Bill

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