Faceplate or Independent Chuck?

[Colin LLoydParticipant @colinlloyd53450]

For a beginner operator of a C3 type mini-lathe – which is going to be the more useful accessory – a faceplate or an independent 4 jaw chuck? I'm guessing they both do more or less the same sort of job – in moving a workpiece off-centre. And in the case of a faceplate you need to balance the revolving faceplate and workpiece. It seems you would also need to balance the independent chuck unless the mass of the chuck is sufficient to avoid balancing. I have no specific need for either at present – but with the large difference in price between the two, I was going to buy a faceplate just in case. Unless forum members advise against this.

[Colin LLoydParticipant @colinlloyd53450]

[Les TParticipant @lest]

Colin, It really depends on the type of work you want to do but I would suggest a 4-jaw chuck will be much more useful. I have both but very rarely have the need for a faceplate whereas the 4-jaw is used frequently.A common use for a 4-jaw is to chuck a round part and use a dial test indicator to get it running true.

[Bob StevensonParticipant @bobstevenson13909]

It's a mistake to equate faceplate and 4 jaw ind. chuck as serving the same purpose since, quite simply, they don't! a 4 jaw is not just for mounting work off centre, although it can do that, it's main purpose on a small lathe is to gain accuracy in small rods and components in conjunction with a dial test indicator. By this means you can carry out very accurate turning and also use it for 'second task' operations wherein you need to turn both ends of an item soo that they are true to a common centre. learning to use the 4 jaw and DTI is a fundamental skill that will prove to be both invaluable and vital.

Faceplate is for mounting larger items such as castings etc and probably relatively limited use to most mini-lathe owners.

[Stuart BridgerParticipant @stuartbridger82290]

Both have their uses, but a.4 jaw independent will get far more use than a faceplate. It depends what your are machining though. For example a faceplate is no good for machining a slide valve eccentric. There is no way you can hold it on a faceplate. The 4 jaw is invaluable for precision work, where you need better alignment that you can get from a 3 jaw. Also setting up work on a faceplate takes a lot more effort than a 4 jaw. If budget is tight buy the 4 jaw and invest in a faceplate later when you a get a job that needs it.

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

Unless you’re machining lots of irregular casting, I think a 4-jaw is hugely the more useful. When I went through a 6-month centre lathe training course in the 70s, the 4-jaw was the default fitting, and we got used to truing up every job in it as standard practice.

Laziness since has meant that I normally now use the 3-jaw, but if I could only afford one fitting, the 4-jaw would still be the clear choice.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

I use my 4-jaw ten or twenty times for every time I use the faceplate, but there are some jobs that need a faceplate.

I love sharing this photo. Mini-lathe gonzo, I had to grind the corners off so it would miss the bed…

[Colin LLoydParticipant @colinlloyd53450]

Thanks guys – It's a 4-jaw Independent chuck then. Good thing I asked as I was persuading myself that the faceplate would be the more versatile – thanks again for putting me straight.

[Ex contributorParticipant @mgnbuk]

4 jaw independent, as large as you can fit (probably a 6&quot & slim body you can get one to fit to minimise overhang.

Used to hold square, rectangular & irregular shaped objects, not just to set off centre. Also used to accurately centre round items – more accurately than a 3 jaw self centring chuck can usually manage.

Faceplates more for special setups, like using a Keats angle plate **LINK**

or to hold castings that don't lend themselves to holding in a chuck. The mini lathe faceplates seem too small to be useful to me (space needed for clamping arrangements), plus the cast slots seem very wide & rather short.

I have the 7" & 9" faceplates for my Myford – not used either in anger yet, but use the 6" 4 jaw regularly. The advice to those starting out who could only afford one chuck initially was to go for a 4 jaw independent over a 3 jaw self centring. Might take a bit more setting up on round work, but more versatile.

Nigel B

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Nigel B on 22/10/2017 14:31:03:

4 jaw independent, as large as you can fit (probably a 6" & slim body you can get one to fit to minimise overhang.

You aren't going to be able to open the jaws of a 6" chuck very far on a 3 1/2" centre height lathe…

[SamsarandaParticipant @samsaranda]

As stated different functions apply to faceplate and four jaw chucks. I am fortunate to have a four jaw independent, four jaw self centring and a faceplate as well as a three jaw self centring. Use the chucks far more frequently than the faceplate but there are jobs which you can only do with a faceplate, so I would say keep your options open and try to acquire both, a faceplate is usually substantially cheaper than a chuck so not a huge outlay required.

Dave

[Colin LLoydParticipant @colinlloyd53450]

Nigel B – I see your point but also Neil's – so was planning to just get a 100mm 4 jaw independent chuck from Amadeal – am certain of getting the right fitting that way. I was up at the Midland Model Engineering Exhibition near Leamington Spa last Friday looking at Chucks and not finding exactly what was needed for my Amadeal CJ18A lathe – was told that it's an easy job to just create new threaded bolt holes in the back of the chuck. Thought this was a step too far for a novice on a relatively expensive piece of equipment and left without buying one.

[Adrian GilesParticipant @adriangiles39248]

Colin, I have a CJ18A lathe, and bought a 100mm four jaw with the lathe, and certainly use that quite a bit. I have also recently bought a faceplate from Amadeal as well for one job, but not used it yet. Four jaw for preference!

[Ex contributorParticipant @mgnbuk]

You aren't going to be able to open the jaws of a 6" chuck very far on a 3 1/2" centre height lathe…

But you can open them to the edge of the chuck body – extending jaws beyond the extents of the chuck body is generally regarded as bad practice *. And opening the jaws to the OD of a 6" chuck will allow larger pieces to be held that doing the same on a 4" version.

Nigel B.

* and yes, I know we all do this at some point and to some extent, but that doesn't make it any less bad practice !

[FatgadgiParticipant @fatgadgi]

Nigel – you're right, in theory it's bad practice, and we all do it. And at the end of the chuck's life, say 50 years from now, perhaps I will regret it. Naa, I'll not be around then, but if I was, I'd buy a new one.

However, what you say has made me think a bit …… the jaws are still going to hold the same size whether they are overhanging a 4" chuck or in a 6" chuck that isn't overhanging.

But, my 5.5" Denford has a 6" 4 jaw chuck, which looks about right, so I think 6" is too big for Colin's lathe.

Cheers Will

[IanTParticipant @iant]

I agree that the 4-jaw is more used Colin but there are certainly sometimes when a faceplate is very useful too.

Like this bit for instance. With a faceplate, it was just.a simple turning (boring?) job – no milling required.

Once I had the curve cut to the correct radius/size – I then cut the plate to final outside size, trimming off the screw holes in the process – with no tricky positioning of the material on the face-plate required. It was easier to do it in this order than the other way around. The wooden back plate protects the actual faceplate and just gets faced back as required and lasts a few go's before a new one is required… old fashioned technology but it's simple and works..

There are also a few useful bits you can add to a faceplate very cheaply that make it a useful & convenient accessory…

Regards,

IanT

PS There are two parts being machined – so they both came out the same…

 

 

Edited By IanT on 22/10/2017 15:51:20

[Ex contributorParticipant @mgnbuk]

the jaws are still going to hold the same size whether they are overhanging a 4" chuck or in a 6" chuck that isn't overhanging.

But the job held in the 4" chuck will not be as secure, due to less of the jaws being supported by the body and less screw engagement. Also, the overhanging jaws will not be visible when the chuck is rotating – potential for an inadvertent operator / moving jaw interface – the operator always comes off worse in such situations. Certain lessons drummed in at Apprentice Training School 40 years ago still resonate !

I think 6" is too big for Colin's lathe.

A C3 mini lathe swings 180mm, according to the Arc website, which is 7.08" – or about the same as my S7. A 6" direct mount fits a S7 fine, so should also fit a C3 fine, though the body will be closer to the bed due to the lack of a gap.

Nigel B

[Speedy Builder5Participant @speedybuilder5]

At a pinch, you can (If you have one) remove a 4 jaw from its backplate, and use the backplate as a faceplate.
BobH

[FatgadgiParticipant @fatgadgi]

Hi Nigel ……. on reflection, you're right, I'm talking out of my £&@@.

I'm relaxing on holiday, so I think the sun has got to me 😀

My Denford has an 8" 4 Jaw. My Myford has a 6", which has seen many a hard job.

Cheers Will

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

I'm not convinced by these 6" chuck arguments at all…

A typical 6" 4-jaw chuck has jaws about 2 1/4" long, if you want to hold something offset or irregular by more than 1 1/4" one jaw is going to have to stick out a minimum of 3 1/2" enough to foul the bed. In fact, if the object is not a convenient size for the steps size for many objects you may be limited to perhaps just 3/4" offset for some sizes of work. Now surely that defeats the object of having a larger chuck?

It also make you reliant on using reversed jaws for most workpieces, which means anything of a decent diameter will have to be fairly short to be held securely.

Plus look at the weights:

Standard 80mm 4-jaw – 1.4 kg

4" four-jaw – 2.8kg

SLIM 6" four jaw – 4.5kg

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

I would argue buying a 4" four jaw for a myford would be a wise purchase,

you can actually quite easily make a faceplate if both expenses are just too much, a chuck is obviously considerably more complicated with all it's moving components.

Michael W

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 22/10/2017 18:54:02:

I'm not convinced by these 6" chuck arguments at all…

.

Likewise

The Myford 'screwed body' 6" 4-jaw is very useful in the gap … but decidedly limited over the bed.

MichaelG.

[IanTParticipant @iant]

Yes, agreed Michael – but much of my work is fairly small, so we are back (as usual) to what sort of work the user will be doing?

I don't think the question is (or at least should be) really whether to get a 4-Jaw or a Faceplate – but simply which one should you get first (assuming nothing has been supplied in the first place). And the answer to that question (to my mind at least) is the 4-Jaw – but you will (eventually) need both…

Regards,

IanT

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by IanT on 22/10/2017 20:46:41:

… I don't think the question is (or at least should be) really whether to get a 4-Jaw or a Faceplate – but simply which one should you get first (assuming nothing has been supplied in the first place). And the answer to that question (to my mind at least) is the 4-Jaw – but you will (eventually) need both…

.

No argument with that logic Ian, I just wanted to highlight that Myford's 6" 4-jaw is rather 'special purpose' and a smaller diameter might prove more useful.

That said [and very much dependent upon the work envisaged] it might be worth Colin looking at the use of 'dogs' on a faceplate … (evolutionary ancestor of the 4-jaw)

MichaelG.

[Michael BriggsParticipant @michaelbriggs82422]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 22/10/2017 19:50:46:

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 22/10/2017 18:54:02:

I'm not convinced by these 6" chuck arguments at all…

.Likewise

The Myford 'screwed body' 6" 4-jaw is very useful in the gap … but decidedly limited over the bed.

MichaelG.

Not in my workshop.

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