Decent Brazed Carbide Tools.

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

As many of you might guess, i always try the search facility before asking a question to see if it's already been answered, but since this doesn't appear to have been asked directly, I'm looking for some better made brazed carbide tools.

I'm talking about the ones that used to be commonplace years ago, where the shank was often heftier (1"? 20mm?) and larger than the small chinese variety.

Alot of people have given these tools a bad rep because of them, whereas i found the ones i used a while ago gave a decent cut into steel or aluminium and left a good finish on them too.

I find that the indexable tips can't stand up to as much as the brazed and was wondering if anyone knew a decent maker?

Michael W

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

[VicParticipant @vic]

Interesting question Michael. I've not had much luck using brazed carbide myself so I set them aside some years ago. Far East versions are commonly available from the usual suspects but if you want something better then maybe Buck & Hickman or Cromwell can supply something suitable?

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Mine must be at least 30 years old, Michael

… seem to be very good material [but grade is not identified]

They probably don't make 'em like that any-more

MichaelG.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

MSC do the Interstate ones, still far eastern origins but at around £20 each should be better than the ME offerings of about £1 each in the sets of multi coloured shanks. Note the MSC ones are colour coded to the grade of carbide.

Failing that any of teh second hand tool dealers at the shows will have a box or two full of them.

Edited By JasonB on 27/09/2016 15:37:23

[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

It's a bit of a oxymoron. Industry moved on from brazing little lumps of magic carbide onto shanks and instead devised means of sintering tips with all manner of different shapes, chip breakers, fixings etc with the result that the current products are in a different league.

Dunno where you are getting your tips from but perhaps you need to change suppliers. Industry manages fine with them….

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

These look very much like the ones I used to buy from old Reeve's.

**LINK**

They would usually had a circa 1/2 shank but bigger was available. I still have some about. The nose rads were viewed as being a bit to big for Myfords. Pass as I didn't use them on my ML7 but they were fine or a Raglan. I had a very early indexed tip tool when I had the Myford. They worked well on the awful combined mill lathe I had for a while. The one with the milling thing stuck on top of the headstock.

Not sure about grades but I asked Graham Engineering about that aspect as they did mention a grade on theirs – answer no chance we only sell the cast iron grade.

I did modify one of their small parting off tools to screw cut hss on a hobbymat. Despite being sharp the tool stood up to it. I didn't like the morse arbours I could get so bought cheap used morse shank reamers instead. Costs were lower too.

John

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[MWParticipant @mw27036]

Thanks, a few more sources for me to investigate.

I think this would be a good place to demonstrate some good ones if i can find them. I promise i wont sharpen them so you can get an idea of how they perform "out of the box".

You see, thats the kind of talk that gives them a bad name, think of them as "old fashioned" and before the neat pristine world of carbide tips. I have used a good number of different tips and find on work loads the ones with the weaker support (like the push-on part off tips) and sharper edges don't stand the test of time. They either break/ jump out or the steel frame starts to burr and bend.

Theres an argument here for HSS as well, which i appreciate but thats got its own place of course, and i don't intend to talk about that.

The other thing that annoys me is the screws cam-out or round over quite easily, i did have an idea of using coppaslip to see if that might stop it ceasing.

There was a discussion on the practical machinist about this, and a well known member pointed out that it should be regarded as a complimentary system rather than competitive, which is basically what my collection is like, an assortment of all 3. He also said that if you imagine carbide like concrete, it's very hard, but if you have a very small sharp point, it's quite easy to chip because it's so brittle, hence, in order to cut well, they tend to have a corner radius to prevent that, and also a good reason why alot of them are negative rake to improve the life of the tip, because the heat resistance is almost limitless for our purposes.

All to play for, i think it should be given a chance.

Michael W

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Curiously I have a V nosed version on my desk at the moment. I wouldn't describe the cutting edges as blunt or radiused according to touch. The tip is ground all over and a loupe doesn't show any rad on the edges either.

Only a tiny chip on the tip. They can be reground but a jig to keep the clearance angle correct would be a good idea also to help get a nice smooth rad.

The grinding isn't brilliant and I look to have used a stone to polish the top up a bit.

John

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[Brian WoodParticipant @brianwood45127]

Michael,

​This could be heresy, or simple madness, I don't know at this stage

It might be possible to make your own brazed tools with retired inserts and then grind those to whatever shape you want. I grieves me to bin them and I have a small collection awaiting some better use.

​I have to say it is not something I have tried, the idea has just occurred to me.

​Any comments from others? Maybe someone has tried it and condemned it, it would be useful to know.

​Regards

Brian

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Brian Wood on 27/09/2016 17:59:51:

… It might be possible to make your own brazed tools with retired inserts and then grind those to whatever shape you want. I grieves me to bin them and I have a small collection awaiting some better use.

.

Seems entirely reasonable to me, Brian

MichaelG.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Would brazing a sintered tip be as durable as using a bit of solid carbide, think if I were making my own then I would go with solid

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by JasonB on 27/09/2016 18:41:03:

Would brazing a sintered tip be as durable as using a bit of solid carbide, think if I were making my own then I would go with solid

.

Good point, Jason

… But if we're using scrap, anything is worth a little experiment.

MichaelG.

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Industry moved away from them purely on cost. Far easier to replace a tip at the machine than have a skilled worker wandering around regrinding a tool.

They do have some advantages though. One is that they can handle interputed cuts better than inserts and you often still see them on bigger latthes doing roughing out work.

Yes you can make your own by brazing or silver soldering worn tips onto MS shanks. Probably not worth it with external tools given costs but we’ll worth it for boring tools which for some reason seem to cost X3 what an external tool costs

[Roderick JenkinsParticipant @roderickjenkins93242]

Posted by JasonB on 27/09/2016 18:41:03:

Would brazing a sintered tip be as durable as using a bit of solid carbide, think if I were making my own then I would go with solid

I think you'll find that all tungsten (and titanium etc.) carbide is manufactured from sintered powders, even so-called solid carbide milling cutters. I think the "solid" just refers to the fact that the whole tool, rather than just the cutting faces, is made from carbide.

Cheers,

Rod

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

Indeed, Carbide is sorted by grade and very fine carbide powders are mixed in with cobalt as a medium.

Michael W

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Roderick Jenkins on 27/09/2016 19:10:11:

Posted by JasonB on 27/09/2016 18:41:03:

Would brazing a sintered tip be as durable as using a bit of solid carbide, think if I were making my own then I would go with solid

I think you'll find that all tungsten (and titanium etc.) carbide is manufactured from sintered powders, even so-called solid carbide milling cutters.

.

Thanks, Rod … You beat me to it

I posted just before we ate, and realised my error during the meal.

MichaelG.

[ianjParticipant @ians]

Might be usefull reading this "Grinding carbide health risks"

l**LINK**

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Thanks Rod, I thought the "Solid" was was done by melting but looks like it is all from powder, just extruded rather than pressed into a mould like the tips.

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

I think the upshot of this is a choice between interstate of msc or kennedy of cromwell, as they seem to be the only ones who are giving detailed information about the styles and types of carbide.

Cromwells availability seems a bit patchy, so i think i'll be choosing interstate. 

Michael W

Edited By Michael Walters on 27/09/2016 20:40:48

[Matt Nolan 1Participant @mattnolan1]

I haven't tried them on my newly acquired ML7 yet, so I may be speaking out of turn. But for lathing Bell Bronze cymbals, I get an awful lot of life out of the 1/2" brazed tip carbide tools from Chronos. A little sharpen every now and again on the grinding wheel (taking care not to inhale!) and they are as good as new. They are not available in larger sizes though.

I think I'll be investigating the Cromwell and Interstate ones now for comparison…

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

Just put in an order for 3 different interstate tools, a RH cranked knife, parting tool and undercut/boring tool. Around the 20-25 mill mark in shank size, they varied but the RH knife should be 1". At a not exactly cheap £50 order.

I went for humdrum P30 carbide, as i consider what i do to be general purpose, P40 being the "heavier" grade and K20 being a light finishing tool. The I numbers were 0 rake so that is probably only suitable for the big boys machines.

Was going to test one of my old boring tools on a big dia. part a person wanted making but the depth was only 50mm, not fit for purpose, so i needed to use one of my indexables with a long length to do that.

Might be an act of madness but i'm not ready to give up on them yet, i'm that convinced that somewhere, they are still making those larger rusty red knife tools i used in college which were as sturdy as old boots.

Michael W

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

Just tried another P30 tool i already own a few hours ago to p-off some bars (a £2-3 jobby from a clarke set) Only thing i did was to key up the edges a bit with a flat diamond needle file. Geometry seemed to be all there, barring a chip breaker but that's not entirely necessary. 

Finish was pretty good, nice and even, i think a good parting tool does need some rigidity so i'm expecting good things from my interstate £15 or so parting tool.

Michael W

Edited By Michael Walters on 28/09/2016 21:44:19

[Raymond AndersonParticipant @raymondanderson34407]

Michael, for your future reference Sandvik Coromant also do Brazed carbide lathe tools. All grades, geometry, ect are available in their catalogue.

cheers.

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

Thanks Ray,

I couldn't find them on their flashy website but i threw it into google and it gave me the catalogue instantly?

Regardless, this is interesting, especially if they themselves make them in house, they do big ones too which i'm always pleased to see. I reckon it could be worth a shot.

Presumably i can just order through their website. I might make some enquiries to see if they do make them in sweden.

Michael W

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