Coal being phased out

[jimmy bParticipant @jimmyb]

The Earth's resources are much like that nice bit of metal in the shed, no matter how little you use, it will run out one day.

Jim

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by roy entwistle on 22/02/2020 08:54:16:

I remember about forty years back these same scientists were telling us that we were heading for another ice age

Roy

I remember the first time I read about climate change, in New Scientist, it would have been almost exactly 40 years ago.

The article referenced the debate between those who felt aerosols would reflect heat and tip us towards an ice age, and those who felt the greenhouse effect was the threat.

There is still a significant possibility that the melting Greenland ice cap could switch off the north Atlantic conveyor (aka 'Gulf Stream&#39 and give north-west Europe the climate of Labrador, even in a warming world.

We have already seen how a warmer Atlantic actually gives us cloudier, wetter weather much of the time.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by jimmy b on 22/02/2020 10:28:21:

The Earth's resources are much like that nice bit of metal in the shed, no matter how little you use, it will run out one day.

Jim

We need to listen to economists not ecologists. They have discovered the secret to 'sustainable growth', while the ecologist's growth curves always level off at the end…*

Neil

[Ex contributorParticipant @mgnbuk]

All they are doing is extending 'smokeless zones' to cover the whole UK.

I live in a "smokeless" zone, yet one of my near neighbours burns ordinary coal after dark – it stinks & I for one will be very happy to see the stuff removed from sale. The houses are late '80s build with gas CH, so the real fire is a "lifestyle" choice & not required to comfortably heat the house.

It makes a change to see other large scale causes of pollutants being addressed at last rather than just harrassing vehicle operators. That said, I would not relish the increased running costs of replacing my 18Kw condensing boiler with an electric equivalant.

Nigel B.

[Bill Davies 2Participant @billdavies2]

Very good comment, Neil.

I remember my economics lecturer reminding us of Keynes' comment about 'the long run' (i.e., extrapolation into the far future): 'in the long run, we are all dead.'

For me, I have seen the climate change over my lifetime, my mother said much the same thing being brought up in London and rembering the Thames freezing over. And I find human causes more compelling than 'natural' ones (technically, of course, we are part of nature). One way or another, and for whatever reason, we need to change course. I recall an OU course that I did in 1981 that pointed out the finite fuel resources and the growing human population in less developed parts of the world that would expect a western standard of living. Quelle surprise, here we are.

Bill

[Phil WhitleyParticipant @philwhitley94135]

Posted by Mark Rand on 21/02/2020 23:53:13:

To the last two posters, you wouldn't show your bare arses and balls in public. Please desist from showing your ignorance in public as well.

Typical of the criticism aimed at "deniers", just insults, no facts!

There is one mistake in my diatribe, for "precambrian" read Cambrian. If the above poster would like to challenge me on any more, consider the gauntlett thrown down!

This is a good watch, absolutely fact rich, all graphs, and illustrates quite clearly how the alarmists are able to show constant uphill curves by selecting where they start their graph!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJWnMA3-sQs&t=1877s

Tony Heller is good on you tube too, and is a high,y qualified scientist.

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

I find it incredible that people who call themselves engineers decry scientists and their theories. Engineering is based on science. Without the fundamental research of scientists much of what we engineers achieve as engineers would not be possible.

We stand on the shoulders of giants. (With apologies to Newton)

Russell

[Steve NeighbourParticipant @steveneighbour43428]

Posted by Mark Rand on 21/02/2020 23:53:13:

To the last two posters, you wouldn't show your bare arses and balls in public. Please desist from showing your ignorance in public as well.

 

 

We live in a civilised democratic country where we enjoy freedom of thought and speech, and can hold our own opinions based on what we decide is worthy of our attention, understanding and belief.

That is what sets the UK apart from countries such are China and Nth Korea (to name just two of many)

THis freedom is what makes life interesting and vibrant, please respect this freedom !!

Edited By Steve Neighbour on 22/02/2020 11:39:01

[Phil WhitleyParticipant @philwhitley94135]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 22/02/2020 10:34:56:

Posted by roy entwistle on 22/02/2020 08:54:16:

I remember about forty years back these same scientists were telling us that we were heading for another ice age

Roy

I remember the first time I read about climate change, in New Scientist, it would have been almost exactly 40 years ago.

The article referenced the debate between those who felt aerosols would reflect heat and tip us towards an ice age, and those who felt the greenhouse effect was the threat.

There is still a significant possibility that the melting Greenland ice cap could switch off the north Atlantic conveyor (aka 'Gulf Stream' and give north-west Europe the climate of Labrador, even in a warming world.

We have already seen how a warmer Atlantic actually gives us cloudier, wetter weather much of the time.

The Greenland ice cap is not melting, and in fact is at a maximum at the moment. it always calves at the edges as the pressure of ice on higher ground pushes it into the sea. Where do you think icebergs come from? Niel is correct about the "science" though, right up until 1988 the scientific concensus was that we were heading for another ice age, and all the media published this as if it were gospel. there is a famous National Geographic cover showing a glacier crushing New York. The recent flooding in the west is caused by a shift in low pressure areas to the west. In the north east UK our winter weather consisted, all through the sixties and seventies of lows forming over northern europe, which sent a bitingly cold noreaster down the east coast of the UK, followed by snow which came in from the Russian steppes, via scandinavia. The same lows now form up over the north atlantic, and sweep over the (always) warmer areas of the gulf stream , and bring rain to the west of the country. Our weather in the east is now much milder in winter. This is a westward shift in weather patterns, NOT a shift in climate.

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by Phil Whitley on 22/02/2020 11:44:42:

,,,, right up until 1988 the scientific concensus was that we were heading for another ice age,

No it wasn't the scientific consensus at all. Quite the opposite actually.

[Phil WhitleyParticipant @philwhitley94135]

Posted by Russell Eberhardt on 22/02/2020 11:25:35:

I find it incredible that people who call themselves engineers decry scientists and their theories. Engineering is based on science. Without the fundamental research of scientists much of what we engineers achieve as engineers would not be possible.

We stand on the shoulders of giants. (With apologies to Newton)

Russell

True Russell, just remember that the steam engine was invented by a blacksnith without any recourse to any form of science, and the science of thermodynamics was based on the study of the already invented steam engine! I am not attempting to decry honest scientists who report their results as they are, and do not apply "ajustments" generated by computer models which constantly fail to produce data matching real world observations. There is a famous quote, can't remember off hand who its by, but it goes along the lines of "it is very hard to get a man to tell the truth when his paycheck depends on him not telling it"

[Phil WhitleyParticipant @philwhitley94135]

Posted by Hopper on 22/02/2020 11:58:39:

Posted by Phil Whitley on 22/02/2020 11:44:42:

,,,, right up until 1988 the scientific concensus was that we were heading for another ice age,

No it wasn't the scientific consensus at all. Quite the opposite actually.

This is exactly the sort of result you would expect from NOAA, given that they promote this alarmism, and are well paid for doing so. There is apparently (I have checked) no way of finding out how this chart was researched, and where the data came from. It would seem odd, given that physics is the same all over the planet, that experiments conducted to test the hypothesis resulted in such diametrically opposed results, or is this just opinions? Seems like it is an excercise in getting scientists to admit they were wrong after the fact. The media reported predictions of catastrophic cooling, just as today they predict catastrophic warming. I am not saying the planet is not getting warmer, it is…very slightly, and the warming is linear, and has been since the little ice age. I am not denying climate change, Climate has always changed. Since the last ice age we have had about 40 degrees of warming, and over 400 feet rise of sea level. What I am saying is that the alarmist view of catastrophic change is not backed up by the science, or real world observations, if you look at the whole picture of all the data and graphs, rather than using the alarmist technique of finding an exeptionally low year, and starting your graph there so you can show a constant uphill trend, which, if you look at all the data, does not actually exist. A technique clearly illustrated here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJWnMA3-sQs&t=1877s.

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

I get the feeling that many of the science reports in the press are a sensationalist snapshot of a subject to excite readers or viewers and give a scientist his five minutes of fame. This type of reporting is tending to undermine serious science. Nutrition is a subject where we regularly get informed that a scientific study has identified something that is good or bad for us, a few years down the road another study will promote the opposite. I feel that everything is ok in moderation, an occasional fast food meal is not going to harm you but extreme indulgence will not be healthy. I hope to join the rest of the old men down the pub who have enjoyed a pint all their life in moderation without harming themselves. The social aspect of a pint down the pub must have a benefit to our wellbeing. Loneliness in old age is a serious problem and a visit to the pub keeps the mind and body active, I have seen some of the younger regulars walk someone home, not because of inebriation but because they are struggling with walking.

Mike

[Phil WhitleyParticipant @philwhitley94135]

Another interesting thing for all the alarmists to research is that CO2 does not drive temperature, temperature drives CO2. CO2 is soluble in water, and is dissolved in rain, which is in fact, weak carbonic acid.

" Normal rain has a pH of about 5.6; it is slightly acidic because carbon dioxide (CO₂) dissolves into it forming weak carbonic acid. "

The sea is a huge reservoir of CO2, and the colder the sea is, the more CO2 it can hold. Slight variations in atmospheric temperature cause the sea to lose CO2 to the atmosphere, but it is the rise in temperature that causes the rise in CO2, not the other way around. On a millenial scale, the lag between temperature rising, and CO2 levels rising is measured in hundreds of years. Al Gores famous scifi movie, "An inconvenient Truth" relies on a very compressed graph which shows the correlation between temperature and CO2. Correlation, however, is NOT causation (as my statistician/mathmetician wife is always telling me) and if you stretch the graph out along the time axis, it becomes clear that it actually shows peak CO2 FOLLOWING peak temperature.

This is a FORUM. The purpose of a forum is to debate ideas, not insult each other. I am not interested in opinions, they are like figernails, we grow some, then cut them off and grow some more. In order to form a balanced view of what is happening, you have to look at both sides of the story!

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Posted by Phil Whitley on 22/02/2020 12:04:37:

True Russell, just remember that the steam engine was invented by a blacksnith without any recourse to any form of science,

What blacksmith was that?

As I understand it, the first practical machine using steam to produce useful work was invented by Thomas Savery, using principles set forth by a French physicist whose name escapes me for now. Newcomen later built on those ideas to build what is generally held to be the first modern steam engine. I don't think any of those men could be considered to be blacksmiths although Newcomen undoubtedly employed some in his manufacturing business.

I would be interested to know of any blacksmith who could have invented a steam engine earlier.

Russell

[Nick Clarke 3Participant @nickclarke3]

Hero of Alexandria (1st Century CE), but I doubt he was a blacksmith either

The French guy was Denis (Dionysius) Papin

Edited By Nick Clarke 3 on 22/02/2020 14:36:42

[Nick Clarke 3Participant @nickclarke3]

Posted by Mike Poole on 22/02/2020 12:36:06:

……… Nutrition is a subject where we regularly get informed that a scientific study has identified something that is good or bad for us, a few years down the road another study will promote the opposite……..

My late father, a GP for 40 years summed it up for me personally when he repeatedly remarked that you could name any human activity whatsoever, and you will find a bunch of doctors who are against it!

Edited By Nick Clarke 3 on 22/02/2020 14:41:07

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Russell Eberhardt on 21/02/2020 16:57:53:

Is it right to use land to produce biofuels when over 800 million people in the world are going hungry?

Russell

A very good question!

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

While some of us may disagree profoundly on these issues, please can we keep the discussion civil?

Neil

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Phil Whitley on 22/02/2020 12:29:57:

Posted by Hopper on 22/02/2020 11:58:39:

Posted by Phil Whitley on 22/02/2020 11:44:42:

 

,,,, right up until 1988 the scientific concensus was that we were heading for another ice age,

 

No it wasn't the scientific consensus at all. Quite the opposite actually.

 

This is exactly the sort of result you would expect from NOAA, given that they promote this alarmism, and are well paid for doing so. There is apparently (I have checked) no way of finding out how this chart was researched, and where the data came from.

Here's a link to the original report which is fully referenced if you want to check the sources.

If you look here, there's an excellent summary and links to background information.

**LINK**

Edited By Neil Wyatt on 22/02/2020 15:18:14

[Nick Clarke 3Participant @nickclarke3]

Posted by duncan webster on 22/02/2020 00:29:38:

Way back in the 30's I think (no I don't remember!) there was an article in ME about an electrically heated boiler, insulated electrode down the connected to live, boiler shell connected to neutral and away you go. I think it had an isolation transformer, but still sounds a bit dodgy.

Purely by chance, having been laid up for a couple of days I saw the article in an old volume of ME I was reading to keep myself amused. I will see if I can find the picture quickly

But any electrical immersion heater will do the same if it corrodes through and the water is heated resistively – albeit very inefficiently.

Found the Pic: Yes it had an isolating transformer, but that was to stop the fuse blowing not to protect bystanders. If anyone is interested I'll add the other pages.

Edited By Nick Clarke 3 on 22/02/2020 17:40:32

[RobinParticipant @robin]

The more I looked in to it the more I realised that we are still in an Ice Age. The glaciations killed off our million year survivor ancestor h.erectus and very nearly wiped us at the same time. This interglacial will end on a fairly gentle slope down, if we can figure out what ends an interglacial then we might be able to fix it. Soot is good at absorbing heat that would usually reflect off the ice sheets back in to space, I think soot could be our salvation. We need to understand the problem before we do anything to try and fix it.

[vintage engineerParticipant @vintageengineer]

Wickes are selling off their coal. 10kg bags £2 each. Offer ends Monday

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by Phil Whitley on 22/02/2020 12:29:57:

Posted by Hopper on 22/02/2020 11:58:39:

Posted by Phil Whitley on 22/02/2020 11:44:42:

 

,,,, right up until 1988 the scientific concensus was that we were heading for another ice age,

 

No it wasn't the scientific consensus at all. Quite the opposite actually.

 

There is apparently (I have checked) no way of finding out how this chart was researched, and where the data came from.

You are totally wrong again. The 2008 study by Peterson et al clearly referred to at the top of the chart is readily available online here American Meteorological Society

It's accepted as valid science by the American Meteorological Society, who clearly know more about this stuff than you or I.

 

Edited By Hopper on 22/02/2020 22:42:48

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

Posted by Nick Clarke 3 on 22/02/2020 17:14:53:

Posted by duncan webster on 22/02/2020 00:29:38:

Way back in the 30's I think (no I don't remember!) there was an article in ME about an electrically heated boiler, insulated electrode down the connected to live, boiler shell connected to neutral and away you go. I think it had an isolation transformer, but still sounds a bit dodgy.

Purely by chance, having been laid up for a couple of days I saw the article in an old volume of ME I was reading to keep myself amused. I will see if I can find the picture quickly

But any electrical immersion heater will do the same if it corrodes through and the water is heated resistively – albeit very inefficiently.

Found the Pic: Yes it had an isolating transformer, but that was to stop the fuse blowing not to protect bystanders. If anyone is interested I'll add the other pages.

Edited By Nick Clarke 3 on 22/02/2020 17:40:32

That's it. Actually with an isolation transformer you could earth the shell so it would be quite a bit safer. I wonder if an arc welder could be pressed into service (hoping someone who understands welding transformers will comment, way out of my expertise. It does have one great feature, when you run out of water it stops conducting electricity, so no chance of burning out.

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