Chinese Electric Cars

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Posted by JasonB on 07/07/2017 15:01:18:You only pay for the difference between what goes in and what comes out

That very much depends on the whim of the government. The buying price paid by the distribution companies is heavily subsidised here. The price has dropped considerably over the last few years but even so is currently double the price paid for nuclear generated energy. I'm a bit out of touch with what the policy is in the UK but I doubt if the distribution companies would want to buy electricity from small unreliable sources unless heavily subsidised.

Russell.

[Geoff TheasbyParticipant @geofftheasby]

Martin, we may have to change our lifestyles somewhat. I/c engined cars can do local, fill them up once a month, or long distance, fill them up daily/weekly. We are not condemned to having two cars either. The average commute is 20 miles daily. So, have an electric car used daily, and hire an i/c engined car for holidays or the odd long trip. Or join a car club. Hybrids are an answer tor those who want one car for both, but it means hauling round an unused battery or an unused i/c engine if you are using the alternative power source. In horse drawn days, people were happy to hire a horse or carriage, my family used to run a livery stables in Keighley before WWI. Most people's cars sit unused between 9 and 5 or whilst sleeping. So, rent when needed, save the hassle of ownership, costs incurred only when needed, and no large investment depreciating in your drive most of the time.

[Nick_GParticipant @nick_g]

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They need to get the electric 'engines' to sound like this.

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

Just put a sound chip through the stereo and you can have any car you like, probably need a speaker outside as well so the dozy pedestrians can hear you, buses withe the engine at the back seem quite successful at catching out pedestrians.

Mike

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

New legislation will require all electric cars to play drum'n'bass, grime or trance at extreme decibels to alert pedestrians to the approach of electric cars.

No heavy metal/rock allowed as too many pedestrians might headbang their way under moving traffic.

Neil

[Neil LickfoldParticipant @neillickfold44316]

The real down side to electric cars is on cold climates and keeping warm. The batteries don't like the cold.

Neil

[john carruthersParticipant @johncarruthers46255]

I don't see much progress until batteries are standardised (no, I'm not holding my breath).
It would make life easier, keep a set at home charging, or swap out a set at motorway services or 'charge shops' like filling stations. Maybe an enterprise leasing batteries to take care of charging and supply, maybe roving vans with a few sets on board for emergency call outs?

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

swap out a set at motorway services

A non starter, methinks. How much difference between changing batteries than recharging?

Who would be swapping batteries in? Those that are getting a good deal – swap in older for newer? W

ith a decent range of over 200miles, who would not want a pee break or something, so the 1/2 hour charging time becomes not so much more than queuing at a petrol pump.

As things steadily improve the need to even think about changing the battery diminishes. What will happen is that autonomous vehicles will be rented as and when required, so they arrive fully charged, you drive them and then they toddle off for another hiring or recharge after you have finished with it.

[Matthew ReedParticipant @matthewreed92137]

A 30 minutes break should be taken more frequently than this for safety reasons. All the safety advice points to a minimum of 30 mins every two hours or so- that's only 140 miles- and swapping drivers is not considered a safe option, according to the good research.

A system that requires drivers to breaks, without having to impose legislation, might be a significant safety factor.

[Anonymous]

Oh dear, I'm in the nanny state bad books again. Assuming I don't need to stop for a leak I normally drive to/from Northumberland (280 miles) in one go, with or without the glider trailer. Usually takes 5 to 6 hours, largely dependent upon the traffic in Newcastle.

It's all very well saying stop frequently, but where? Some sort of rip off service station that doesn't cater for long trailers? At least the French motorways have simple stop off areas every 20km or so; to include parking and basic loos.

Andrew

[MikeParticipant @mike89748]

Me too, Andrew. Living in a village in the far north of Scotland would be a nightmare without a petrol or diesel car. With the nearest railway many miles away, and bus companies allowed to cherry-pick routes and only operate on the most profitable, at the moment a conventional car is an absolute must. Let's be honest and admit that, outside cities, at the moment electric cars are nothing but a bad joke. Hybrids may be OK, but do I really want to pay the extra for an electric motor and batteries? Please let's be practical.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

> at the moment electric cars are nothing but a bad joke.

I read a review of the electric version of Volkswagen's UP! recently.

Range of 120 miles and performance exceeding the conventional version, with an 8 year/100,000 mile battery guarantee (no more than 10% capacity loss).

Yes it's pricy, but the lifetime cost is probably less than convectional fuels (the review warns the extra torque and sport performance will eat front tyres though!)

It's an ideal solution for anyone commuting up to about 40 miles, or much more if your employer can provide a charging point. That's well outside city's commuter belts.

I'm personally stunned by how the practicality of electric cars has come on in just a decade, I'm convinced that the technology can only come on in leaps and bounds.

As pointed out above, the real need is for easily swappable and interchangeable battery packs. This will need legislation as manufacturers will want you to use only their own packs.

Ultimately the well-off will swap out their packs regularly and 'part worn' or 'refurbished' packs with reduced but still viable capacity will mean that even those who can't afford new will be able to use electric cars.

But expect a whole new range of ways for vehicle manufacturers' finance companies to make even more money from drivers.

Neil

[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

Posted by Neil Lickfold on 08/07/2017 02:35:50:

The real down side to electric cars is on cold climates and keeping warm. The batteries don't like the cold.

Neil

Tell that to the Norwegians. Their Pivco / Th!nk vehicles worked absolutely fine in their Arctic climate. Pity they went bust finally, although this was due to the endemic problem of trying to make a commercial success of EVs before the commercial conditions were right. Been there (Th!nk, Oslo) myself – and at an EV company that folded.

Murray

[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 08/07/2017 11:20:58:

As pointed out above, the real need is for easily swappable and interchangeable battery packs. This will need legislation as manufacturers will want you to use only their own packs.

Ultimately the well-off will swap out their packs regularly and 'part worn' or 'refurbished' packs with reduced but still viable capacity will mean that even those who can't afford new will be able to use electric cars.

Don't think so Neil. Doesn't generally work and you would have fun running that one past any of the OEMs. The only cassette concept I can recall was the ill-fated Modec.

Murray

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Let's be honest and admit that, outside cities, at the moment electric cars are nothing but a bad joke.

Not a lot of research here, I reckon. The Orkney Isles likely have the highest density of EVs in the UK. Ideal for them. Virtually no fuel cost (and dino fuels are reeeelly expensive up there!)

Yes, range can be a problem, but not insurmountable and is improving all the time. The Tesla 3 will change all that and other manufacturers will have to respond. I could charge at home on E7 leccy most of the time.

With a nissan leaf, I could easily visit my brother 70 miles away. Full charge gets me there, slow home charge during my daytime stay would enable me to get to Northampton (half way home). A 20 minute fast charge would get me home easily. Extra charging points will come and vince whatsisname (ecotricity) will soon have to charge less for a charge top up than he is presently.

My little diesel saxo is 15 years old. Used as a skip for all my tools, beekeeping kit, etc (so has not had a rear seat fitted for nearly 5 years). I will most certainly consider an EV when it expires.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Muzzer on 08/07/2017 11:46:02:

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 08/07/2017 11:20:58:

As pointed out above, the real need is for easily swappable and interchangeable battery packs. This will need legislation as manufacturers will want you to use only their own packs.

Ultimately the well-off will swap out their packs regularly and 'part worn' or 'refurbished' packs with reduced but still viable capacity will mean that even those who can't afford new will be able to use electric cars.

Don't think so Neil. Doesn't generally work and you would have fun running that one past any of the OEMs. The only cassette concept I can recall was the ill-fated Modec.

Murray

Or the Tesla S:

"Tesla designed the Model S to allow fast battery swapping, which also facilitates vehicle assembly. At a demonstration Tesla showed a battery swap operation taking around 90 seconds, about half the time it takes to refill an empty gas tank."

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 08/07/2017 11:20:58:

Range of 120 miles and performance exceeding the conventional version, with an 8 year/100,000 mile battery guarantee (no more than 10% capacity loss).

Remember, in the winter with reduced battery capacity and heater/demister going full blast you will probably only get half that range. As for living in a mountainous region…

When my present diesel Skoda eventually falls apart perhaps things will have improved but I will still be looking for something I can drive 1200 km in a couple of days get the ferry to the UK and have room for luggage and my wife's wheelchair. I don't see any hybrids, let alone electric cars that can do that economically yet.

Russell.

[Andrew TinsleyParticipant @andrewtinsley63637]

Electric cars are NOT a replacement for current IC models. They have limited range and expensive batteries. It will suit some people, but totally useless for my particular needs.

Electric cars will eventually take over, BUT this will only happen when there is a big breakthrough in battery technology. It will also be useless for HGVs and the like, even when the breakthrough occurs!

Note the French will be banning IC cars in 2040 and Volvo will only produce electric or hybrid cars form 2019. So it will happen, but not yet!

Andrew.

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

My longest days driving was 600 miles and a channel ferry crossing, a Tesla would have comfortably achieved this with a couple of 40min stops. A friend does the trip to Menton on the French Riviera in a non stop run except for fuel, they have four drivers and picnic on the move. This style of travel would challenge an EV. My choice for the same trip includes two overnight stops. Stop at about 4pm at hotel with swimming pool have a swim and relax for a while then pop out to a nice restaurant for dinner, get up next day have a nice breakfast and on the road at 9:30 for next stage. An EV would easily do this with a little planning. I noticed a while ago that Tesla installed 6 fast charging bays at the Oxford M40 services, I could pop over for a coffee and some free electrickery.

Mike

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

It's looks as though the Tesla free charging has come to an end as of Jan 2017.

Mike

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

It will also be useless for HGVs and the like, even when the breakthrough occurs!

Geesh! Doesn't anyone do their research before making such sweeping statements. They are already here! Fuel cells in combination with battery storage.

There are prototypes out there being tested. Have you not heard or seen any details of 'on the move' battery charging? Some french (I think) city is already planning for changing to all electric drive trucks – whether that means swapping tractors at the city limits, or whatever, in any interim period, but it is on the cards.

Buses are increasingly changing to electric – easy for city use to reduce pollution – and as range increases or charging improves the technology will help heavy goods development.

As I see it, there is currently nowhere near enough low carbon electricity generation or transmission capability to remove dino fuels in the very near future, but it will have to come, eventually.

Look forwards, not backwards is what I say.

[VicParticipant @vic]

In the not too distant future young people will laugh their heads off when told people used to buy their own cars then leave them sitting outside their houses 90% of the time! Let's not forget that it was not that much more than 100 years ago that it was laughable that automobiles would replace horses as a form of transport.

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

It's looks as though the Tesla free charging has come to an end as of Jan 2017.

Only for new purchases, I believe?

[MikeParticipant @mike89748]

Vic: Well, it was an improvement on a horse, which you had to feed every day, whether it was working or not. Russell: You seem to be the only one who recognises the impracticalities of electric cars in their present form. The answer is going to be hugely improved battery technology.

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

I doubt the theory of renting autonomous vehicles working any better than the idea of just using taxis now. It'll liekly be worse with errors on credit checking, sme wag workign out how much more economical it is to send it to you slowly and let the punter wait, let alone the horrors of DDOS attacks on hire companies or a need to change to a different service when you get out of their area. For convenience folk will still own their own and likely the economy will foolishly depend on that.

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