Buying a new Lathe….Asian?

[Matt Stevens 1Participant @mattstevens1]

Hi All,

I currently own and use a 1939 Southbend Model C lathe (9" between centers). It certainly has its limitations in that it works only with change gears (messy and a pain), no powered cross feed, no variable speed, not overly versatile to mount anything else other than the compound slide etc. On top of this….it is old and likely worn and not as rigid as it could be…. maybe i can use a slightly bigger machine too?!

So before i approach the wife for scolding/funding, i need to have an idea on what to look at. There has always been debate about Chinese imports and quality…..but then there is some very good quality items from China and improvements made in recent years. Its also true to say you get what you pay for yadda yadda.

There is a lot of what looks like the same machines with different brands stamped on. I suspect the castings might come from the same original supplier, but the spindle bearing and other parts may differ and there may lie the big quality differences….. SO……what should i be looking at? I am based in Canada, a sucker for a bargin but also don't want to buy something i will regret. Anyone want to give me some experiences of what to look at and what not?

Thanks

[Matt Stevens 1Participant @mattstevens1]

[Chris Evans 6Participant @chrisevans6]

Most  Asian import machines should be a lot better than a well worn old industrial machine. I had a South Bend "Heavy Ten" for 45 years, then needing a bigger machine on retirement bought a used Taiwanese 14"x40" lathe. It is a 1998 machine and given no major problems apart from when I made a new cross slide plus screw and nut. Main reason was to beef it up a bit and incorporate tee slots on the slide. I think you may struggle to find a budget lathe that will cut a good range of threads without change gears. Good luck with the search.

Edited By Chris Evans 6 on 30/09/2020 18:35:01

[Tony Pratt 1Participant @tonypratt1]

The best advice I can give is buy from a reputable established dealer & in the UK I always use a credit card for purchases over £100 to give extra security if anything 'goes wrong', who are the m/c tool dealers you will be looking at?

Tony

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

Rockwell Delta 10" with 54 threads from the gearbox or 11" with the same.

No gears to change just Varispeed belts

[Matt Stevens 1Participant @mattstevens1]

Posted by Tony Pratt 1 on 30/09/2020 18:32:41:

The best advice I can give is buy from a reputable established dealer & in the UK I always use a credit card for purchases over £100 to give extra security if anything 'goes wrong', who are the m/c tool dealers you will be looking at?

Tony

So common brands over here in Canada are King Canada, Busy Bee Tools (Cheap), Grizzly is just over the border in the US….. really not sure.

I have seen alot of positive feedback for Precision Matthews machines. I don't know if they are locally available to me or not…..

[Bill DawesParticipant @billdawes]

All I can say Matt is that a few years ago I bought a Warco 290V lathe, power feeds and variable speed control, not had any problems, I love it. Made in China and there are many other branded suppliers that are based on the same machine, Grizzly rings a bell with me, I think I remember googling something and Grizzly came up as a brand based on a Chinese generic machine.

Chinese stuff was a bye word for rubbish many years ago but these days China has many high tech factories, how much quality branded stuff, Apple, Microsoft, Nikon Sony etc is made in China, a lot. (I remember when Japanese stuff was laughed at.)

Bill D.

[Tony Pratt 1Participant @tonypratt1]

Matt, as you say most of the Chinese lathes are going to be very similar in appearance that is why you need a reputable dealer for back up, the devils in the detail. I have a Warco 290v which replaced my old Myford Super 7, it's certainly rough around the edges but boy does it shift metal & a high specification! Grizzly has been around for years so must be doing something right & I have seen various good reports of Precision Mathews. You have the perennial problem of new Asian vs used USA/European lathes, who knows what is best, good luck.

Tony

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by Matt Stevens 1 on 30/09/2020 18:59:50:

Posted by Tony Pratt 1 on 30/09/2020 18:32:41:

The best advice I can give is buy from a reputable established dealer & in the UK I always use a credit card for purchases over £100 to give extra security if anything 'goes wrong', who are the m/c tool dealers you will be looking at?

Tony

So common brands over here in Canada are King Canada, Busy Bee Tools (Cheap), Grizzly is just over the border in the US….. really not sure.

I have seen alot of positive feedback for Precision Matthews machines. I don't know if they are locally available to me or not…..

Busy Bee owner and Grizzly owner are related… I think brothers. Both have same surname : Balolia. I have met a Craftex inspector who was carrying out an inspection on some machines for Busy Bee in a SIEG Factory during one of my visits. They work independently from each other, even though they both buy from same factories for certain products… but not all.

Ketan at ARC

[Steve NeighbourParticipant @steveneighbour43428]

Hi Matt,

I would suggest you look for a site on YouTube called 'blondie hacks'

This is really a very good to watch site and the woman uses a Precision Mathew's machine which you'll you'll recognise as a Asian import clinen probably made by Weiss.

She has a upload on the machine with all the pros & cons.

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

Posted by Bill Dawes on 30/09/2020 19:49:24:

All I can say Matt is that a few years ago I bought a Warco 290V lathe, power feeds and variable speed control, not had any problems, I love it. Made in China and there are many other branded suppliers that are based on the same machine, Grizzly rings a bell with me, I think I remember googling something and Grizzly came up as a brand based on a Chinese generic machine.

Chinese stuff was a bye word for rubbish many years ago but these days China has many high tech factories, how much quality branded stuff, Apple, Microsoft, Nikon Sony etc is made in China, a lot. (I remember when Japanese stuff was laughed at.)

Bill D.

I use a Warco WM250V from the same stable and I think the same. It's very capable, versatile when used with a vertical slide, can work to a few tenths with care and has proved completely reliable, any issues having been user-inflicted and user-fixable.

[Matt Stevens 1Participant @mattstevens1]

I think the Warco WM250V is essentially the same machine as the Precision Matthews one…

PM-1022V 10″x22″ / PM-1030V 10″x30″ Precision Lathes

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

Posted by Matt Stevens 1 on 30/09/2020 21:09:13:

I think the Warco WM250V is essentially the same machine as the Precision Matthews one…

PM-1022V 10″x22″ / PM-1030V 10″x30″ Precision Lathes

It does look extremely similar (apart from the paint job), but it has quick-change chuck and toolpost, which my WM250V doesn't. Both of these might be advantageous – my 3-jaw chuck runs true within about 0.0006" (six tenths) on ground bar, which makes me reluctant to change chucks for fear of getting dust or grit in the register!

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

If I lived in North America I would look for a newer less worn South Bend or similar with QC gearbox. Plenty around in the US but don't know about Canada.

[Jeff DaymanParticipant @jeffdayman43397]

I'm also in Canada Matt. I have seen some Busy Bee lathes that were not bad at all but also some that were absolute rubbish with multiple major defects. Also not sure about today, but years ago they would deliver to the front of your house, but would not help you get it off the truck or into your garage. Major aggravation when that happened. King have imported some good tools, my King floor mount drill press is excellent, but I lucked out – when I was looking for one, I tested the spindle play in each one in-store, and found about 6 units that had 1/16" or more of play with the quill down. I found one that had essentially no play and took that home. You have to be careful. KBC tools may be a better place to look for Asian lathes, they stand by what they sell and if you buy one there and have any problems they will try and make it right, in my experience. BB not so much.

If you see any Standard Modern brand lathes in Kijiji etc they are worth a look, they were built well and made in Toronto. As good as or better than South Bend. If you could find a more modern South Bend with lower wear than your older one, and a QC gearbag, that would be a good choice in my opinion. I also have an older SB lathe but I really like mine. Good luck in your search.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Being UK based do not know what offerings are available in Canada.

Chines lathes seem to be imported by various suppliers, painted in a colour scheme, and a package chosen by the importer.

My lathe is 17 years old, an Engineers Tool Room BL12 -24. The same machine in slightly different guises was offered in the UK by Warco as the BH 600 (with the longer bed version as BH900 ) or the Chester Craftsman.

These have Norton gear boxes, and a separate shaft for the power traverses, and induction hardened beds. So represent reasonable quality. Problems have been minor, or a larger ones of my own making.

They have been replaced by gear head versions, and now variable speeds are the norm.

If you research offerings to the North American market, you will probably find a number of "lookalikes" of any machine that seems to be a possibility. The differences are likely to be colour scheme, specification of the package, price and warranty.

When you take a fancy to a machine, ask for opinions / experiences from owners, but do not be surprised to get some detractors as well as recommendations.

Howard

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

I would just add to be aware that the factories generally supply the machines to distributors with custom specifications (not just the colour/stickers!)

Best to look carefully at the specs and compare those as well as price and be aware that you are also paying for the seller to provide decent customer service and hold stocks of spares and accessories.

Neil

[Matt Stevens 1Participant @mattstevens1]

Thankyou everyone for your thoughts…..it may be a little while till i upgrade due to funds and ….ahem…..convincing the wife etc.

I will keep you all informed and perhaps post what i am looking at for comments.

P.S. The Blondihacks youtube video was very useful!

[Ronnie ZownirParticipant @ronniezownir67743]

One thing to consider is the quality of the cast iron used to produce the machines coming out of China and whether it's been properly normalized/stabilized. A machine made from poor iron eventually reflects the quality of the base material. The owner of one of the machinery manufacturers my company deals with said they use cast iron from Taiwan for their budget line of screw machines because they do it right there. So, if you go down this path, lean toward a Taiwanese product, like Jet. The small extra money you spend on one from them is the price of certainty of not encountering basic trouble you cannot fix.

If you live in a part of Canada that has (or had) a decent concentration of manufacturing, refurbished machinery may be another choice. Oftentimes, a refurbished vintage machine from North America or Europe is superior to anything you can buy new today.

Check out the tour that the owner of Suburban Tool did at one of these facilities for its YouTube channel:

Edited By Ronnie Zownir on 02/10/2020 19:02:19

Edited By Ronnie Zownir on 02/10/2020 19:04:10

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

The lathe Howard mentions is also the Grizzly G9249. The particular point to note is that it has a Norton QCGB. None of the more recent knob based QCGB versions have the full range of a Norton. They are a compromise to add a few metric thread options to cater for the world market and leave out a few of the imperials. The spec still says something like "100 imperial and 70 metric threads" without mentioning how many gears you have to fiddle with so get the manual and read it carefully.

[Oily RagParticipant @oilyrag]

Matt,

One lathe I would look at in North America is the 'new' South Bend Heavy 10. Sold by Grizzly I think the designation is SB 1007; this machine is, as I understand it, based on the Emco Maximat Super11 which was one of the finest mid size lathes produced in Europe up until 1996. The production of the heavy castings is, I believe, done in Taiwan (quality of cast iron is superior there) and also machined over there before assembly of major components back in the US. I have a ex-colleague who now works in a motorsport shop in Az. who recommends this machine as being in the true heritage of the 'old' SB Heavy 10 but that it is a far more capable machine than the 'old' SB.

The sad fact is that these days no one in Europe or NA can do commercial casting of iron due to the prescriptive emissions regulations and energy costs, unless it is on a mass production schedule; although the US does have the advantage of cheap raw energy in the fracked gas available there. Sorry, may have transgressed the No Politics directive there!!!

[Jeff DaymanParticipant @jeffdayman43397]

FYI when I last tried to order a few small parts from Grizzly a couple of years ago they refused to ship to Canada. May have changed since then, but I would recommend asking first before placing any order.

They didn't give a reason for the order refusal but I suspect that it may be so they don't undercut sales of Busy Bee who do operate in Canada. As others mentioned the owners of Grizzly and Busy Bee are related somehow.

Busy Bee do not offer a lathe that is comparable to the "new heavy 10" from Grizzly. It looks like a nice machine, although I have seen complaints on various forums that it has some odd design quirks that reduce capability in certain ops. (on old SB lathes not all came with all features, but what was present worked perfectly, for many years, even if abused)

Edited By Jeff Dayman on 04/10/2020 12:34:06

[Oily RagParticipant @oilyrag]

Given the pedigree of the Emco Maximat Super11 of which it is a clone I wonder what the 'quirks' are? I know my Super 11 suffers from 'small tool syndrome' due to the restricted height of the compound slide top surface to the spindle centre line. but it is possible to work around this. The advantage is the rigidity of the compound slide which gives the length of action (over 4" ) rarely seen on other machines. As I understand it the machine is a South Bend product rather than a Grizzly product. If this is true, acknowledging that it may be South Bend as in the successors to the name rather than the SB company of old, I would expect that any successor would wish to preserve the good name rather than import goods of questionable quality.

Accepting that Grizzly may not trade in Canada I am sure that there is someone in Canada that is a SB agent – so perhaps there is a route into Canada for their product other than shipping from Grizzly? My ex-colleague in Az told me the New Heavy 10 was as good as the Super 11 he had used in the UK – same silky smooth controls and outstanding accuracy.

Edited By Oily Rag on 04/10/2020 13:51:18

[Jeff DaymanParticipant @jeffdayman43397]

The complaints I recall were that spindle hole was restricted some way inside it, so it looks big but isn't, control levers on some early ones fouled each other, carriage / cross slide unnecessarily high reducing turning capacity, some early ones had very short tailstock barrels/screws, and early leadscrews had pitch errors which showed up on longer threaded parts.

The design of the new heavy 10 was done as a collaboration between Grizzly's owner and the Taiwan factory. "wants" and "asks" from various SB forums and individuals in communication with Grizzly's owner also influenced the design. But make no mistake these are Taiwanese lathes not US lathes and not designed by the original SB company in any way. The original SB company in South Bend Indiana ceased to exist many years ago.

Grizzly now own the South Bend trade name. There is no Canadian sales agent for South Bend or Grizzly. What makes you sure there someone in Canada who is a SB agent? Note that I would be happy to be proven wrong on this point, but I can't find any such agent. I would be buying stuff from them if there were.

Many machine tool firms worldwide did have agents here in the 1960's -1980's but no longer. There are some CNC machine firms who still do, supporting the car manufacturing and machine shop businesses, but there are fewer and fewer as industry declines here.

Edited By Jeff Dayman on 04/10/2020 14:59:51

[Enough!Participant @enough]

Posted by Jeff Dayman on 04/10/2020 12:28:41:

FYI when I last tried to order a few small parts from Grizzly a couple of years ago they refused to ship to Canada. May have changed since then, but I would recommend asking first before placing any order.

That was the case up to some years ago. The brothers had an agreement not to deal in each others territory. A while back, that changed and Grizzly started shipping to Canada (and presumably Busy-Bee will ship to the US but I imagine the traffic is heavily loaded the other way).

I ordered a number of smaller items (lathe chucks, power feed for mill etc) from Grizzly a few years ago without problem – simply by placing the order online.

In fact, BB will get stuff in from Grizzly for you, including shipping, customs clearance etc – for a price. Saves the import hassle but it's cheaper to do it yourself.

…. Unless, of course, it's changed again. I've no reason to think so but it's some years since I went that route.

Edit: I think this explains it

 

Edited By Bandersnatch on 04/10/2020 17:00:39

[Author]

Posts