black 5 steam up failed

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

No disrespect to Ron but having seen the mess Ron made of drilling that first cover plate on ME. I hate to think what a mess he made of that top bush as he drilled and tapped it particularly the large 2BA which he says he used. I doubt he set the boiler up on the mill, more likely he used a cordless drill with it on the bench, only takes a snatch in the copper or over deep hole to do some damage.

Fair enough the joint may have been a bit lacking in one place and the poor subsequent machining could have cause it to fail which would explain it holding upto test but now leaking.

Julian I hope you have made GB aware of this thread as it would be useful to hear their side of things

[KWILParticipant @kwil]

I think Julian has hit the nail on the head when he says

"poor Ron spends a fortune on a commercial boiler. they (ie GB Boilers) even had the chassis to make sure all fitted but still made the boiler too short and the firebox too long so that the axlepump assembly fouls it.

the give him a hydraulic test certificate, then the dome bush to barrel joint fails. (Was it ever tested to 2x pressure?)

then have the cheek to charge him £100 to put it right!"

Personally I think that is most unprofessional and I wonder why such suppliers continue to exist. Maybe it is because modellers like Ron, who admits to being a novice, is taken for a ride with a cheaper price. You gets what you pays for, as the expression goes, in Ron's case a boiler full of trouble. A half decent supplier would hang their head in shame and would correct all the errors FOC, perhaps even throwing in a replacement dome cover already drilled to fit by way od some compensation.

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

I firstly drilled the holes on the dome 4BA on my mill but thought the gasket was leaking.

I then drilled and tapped 2 BA and this was to near the edge of my boiler dome so I am responsible for the bush needing changing.

As a novice it's hard to get things right when your doing it all for the first time with the only help coming from friends on Internet.

I am sure I won't make the same mistake again it's all a big learning curve and not having an engineering background does not help.

Until 2 1/2 years ago never used a lathe or a mill so been a real challenge.

Hopefully I will succeed next time

Ron

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

Until 2 1/2 years ago never used a lathe or a mill so been a real challenge

I'm rootin' for ya Ron, victory will be yours!

[David WassonParticipant @davidwasson11489]

Ron,

I am still wondering of you have the drawings for this locomotive. Did the drawing really show to drill for 6 2BA screws? I doubt it. Make the parts like the drawing and perhaps some of your trouble can be avoided.

David

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

All credit to Ron for having the courage to admit it was his drilling that caused the problem. Ron has achieved a lot in a short time.

We all make mistakes.

Perhaps those blaming the maker of the original boiler might care to admit theirs as well.

Neil

[Peter KroghParticipant @peterkrogh76576]

Thanks for that, Neil!

Pete

[KWILParticipant @kwil]

Yes Neil we all make mistakes but they are our errors, made during a part time hobby, when it's your business or profession, selling product to amateurs and novices, you do owe them a duty to do a proper job to drawing in the first place.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by KWIL on 12/02/2016 13:53:47:

Yes Neil we all make mistakes but they are our errors, made during a part time hobby, when it's your business or profession, selling product to amateurs and novices, you do owe them a duty to do a proper job to drawing in the first place.

Indeed,

But Ron has said it was his error not the boiler maker's.

Is it still fair to accuse them of unprofessionalism because they are charging to replace the damaged bush?

Neil

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Kwil I think Neil was refering to Julian's error in blaiming the leak on GB not errors in Ron's workmanship. Julian has said elsewhere that he now feels he got this wrong and that the leak was likely caused by drilling/tappinhg. I agree with Neil that it would be fair to GB if he also said the same here.

Also the idea was NOT to build the boiler to drawing as the loco was to an earlier design.

 

Edited By JasonB on 12/02/2016 14:17:55

[J HancockParticipant @jhancock95746]

It is always 'difficult' to know when you are 'helping' someone and when you are 'interfering' BUT

in this case I think it would be helpful if someone who knows GB boilers well, could ask them to speak

to Ron BEFORE fitting the new bush. They may be able to advise Ron how to ensure the new dome assembly

is a success !

This may require the whole dome/bush being made before silver soldering, as so many have advised.

[Martin WParticipant @martinw]

The problem is that a lot of the above is conjecture and without facts it is pointless trying apportion blame to either party. Ron says that he initially tapped the holes at 4BA but thought that the gasket was leaking. If there was a leak at this stage then was it a manufacturing problem or possibly due to the asymmetric fixing holes we don't know.

What we know is that Ron then tapped them 2BA and this definitely didn't resolve the problem and possibly made things worse.

Unless it can be proven that there was a problem with the boiler manufacture then it is quite reasonable for GB to charge for any extra work. One hopes that this is charged at a fair rate and includes a new certificate etc.

Hope you get it sorted out Ron and that the loco turns out to be a good runner, I admire what you have done in the time, being by your own admission a relative newbie to engineering. GOOD LUCK!!

Martin

Edited By Martin W on 12/02/2016 18:01:16

[julian atkinsParticipant @julianatkins58923]

i can only go by what Ron has said to me privately than backed up by what he has posted here.

he supplied GB with the finished chassis, and the boiler when completed had a barrel too short, and a firebox too long and too wide.

most professional boiler makers follow alec farmer's design of dome bush to barrel. in such circumstances there are no problems with the inner dome bush fixings. i agree that 2BA is asking for problems with the dome fixings in 5"g – i use 6 or 4BA with fitted stainless bolts made by myself. i am quite happy to repeat here as per Jason's suggestion that i may have taken a wrong view re the dome bush to barrel joint – though this was based on info supplied by Ron.

apologies due as a result.

cheers,

julian

[Martin WParticipant @martinw]

Julian

If as you say the boiler was made to the incorrect dimensions then perhaps Ron should have rejected it then and there, but as usual we are all blessed with twenty twenty hindsight. I don't know how this boiler making business is conducted regarding payments etc.. Is it payment up front, in stages or on completion? If it's all up font then the manufacturer has to some extent one by the proverbials, which is true to some degree with staged payments. I must admit with something like this I personally would be very reluctant to commit all the money up front.

With regard to the apparent leak I think it was always going to be difficult to prove if it was faulty manufacture or was down to something Ron had done, unless the joint was destructively examined to check the solder penetration etc.

Lets hope that Ron gets the situation resolved to his satisfaction and that the loco works fine. Mind it would be nice if GB did the work free as a gesture of goodwill.

Cheers and take care

Martin

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

Had some good news today GB Boilers will drill the top dome bush and spot the new bush with 8 4 ba holes for me.

Also going to fit the drain plug to the rear of the boiler and extend front of my boiler so it fits in the smoke box further.

He also would not let me pay for it just got to wait till next week to get it back he is going to put new boiler cert on for Boiler inspector.

Be so nice to finaly get it finished and up and running.

Today isa good Day

Ron

[Martin WParticipant @martinw]

Ron

It is nice to hear that you have got a positive response from GB Boilers. Hope your loco runs well and you get many hours pleasure from it. I think that GB Boilers should get some recognition for their response to your problems insomuch as they are doing the work for free and for offering to supply a pre-drilled top dome to match the mounting bush.

Martin

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

Can't wait for Paperwork so can start building it all again.

Got to buy a new brass plate to go round boiler lagging not looking forward to fitting that again.

Last time found very difficult but they say Practise makes perfect (I wish)

Not sure what I am going to lag it with this time last time I used some Motorcycle exhaust lagging for fairing.

It not only fireproof it was self adhesive and has silver foil and 5mm thick.

Trouble is its £60 a sheet and just does the boiler.

I have thought I might use my welding apron as twice round should be good for insulation.

Just wish it would all go back same as it came apart had to alter the super heater got to make all new steam pipes to the cylinders.

Just hope I can get it finished ready for spring running.

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

Must say thank you to GB Boilers for fitting new Bush extending boiler and fitting new drain plug thank you George

Ron

[julian atkinsParticipant @julianatkins58923]

hi Ron,

that looks like a very good job.

good luck for the steam test!

cheers,

julian

[David WassonParticipant @davidwasson11489]

The spacing and diameter of the fasteners at least looks correct this time. Hope it goes well for you.

David

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

Hi Julian yes he has done a good job for me. Boiler also been extended so axle pump should miss the firebox. He also fitted a drain plug rear of boiler much better now. Now the hard work starts. I used a flat oil stone on top of bush to get really flat and smooth used stainless studs and Top 1 mm gasket with high temp copper silicone gasket both sides using a leather hole punch for the stud holes.fingers crossed no more problems taking my time just try extra hard to get everything just right. All the very best Ron

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