Arbor Press Question

[Richard Harris 5Participant @richardharris5]

So I'm in the process of buying a #5 now. Any idea how heavy these are? Wondering if two people can lift it into a van or not…

[Anonymous]

Posted by Richard Harris 5 on 18/07/2018 17:28:14:

Any idea how heavy these are? Wondering if two people can lift it into a van or not…

I would think well into the hundreds of kilos, depends upon the people of course, may be ok if you've got Geoff Capes available. As I recall two of us couldn't lift a #3 into a hatchback.

Incidentally I understand that the number refers to the tonnage that the press can exert. Anybody know if this is correct?

Andrew

[Richard Harris 5Participant @richardharris5]

Posted by Andrew Johnston on 18/07/2018 17:47:38:

Posted by Richard Harris 5 on 18/07/2018 17:28:14:

Any idea how heavy these are? Wondering if two people can lift it into a van or not…

I would think well into the hundreds of kilos, depends upon the people of course, may be ok if you've got Geoff Capes available. As I recall two of us couldn't lift a #3 into a hatchback.

Incidentally I understand that the number refers to the tonnage that the press can exert. Anybody know if this is correct?

Andrew

Hah! Well I am thinking we'll probably need three people then to be honest, to be on the safe side. I'll likely have to wait a couple of weeks until I can pick it up but would prefer that than someone breaking their back!

I too have heard the numbers refer to tonnage that they can exert, but I don't know how much truth there is in that. I suspect it may have been a rough estimate for some but just a numbering system for size for others. Is the calculation mass x velocity = energy?

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Says 272kg here

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

A fly-press is a really good way of delivering a consistent blow to a die or stamp. Unfortunately I don't have room for one.

Richard's requirement could be met by any other way of delivering a straight blow to a stamp aligned with the work. With practice it can be done with a hammer, though I find it's not easy to acquire the knack of keeping a stamp straight while hitting it just hard enough to do the job.

An alternative might be to drop a weight down a pipe arranged to ensure that the weight hits the stamp square with a measured blow. The size of the blow delivered is determined by the size of the weight and by how far it falls. Once found, the blow can be repeated exactly. Like operating the fly-press, gauging the necessary violence (the drop) has to determined experimentally.

Not as easy as a fly press but the arrangement takes up less space.

Dave

 

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 18/07/2018 19:12:53

[ken king, King DesignParticipant @kenkingkingdesign]

I can't help wondering whether a foot operated toggle press might be able to exert the force needed. If properly adjusted, so that the toggle linkage is just reaching a straight line at the end of the stroke, then the mechanical advantage theoretically approaches infinity, the limiting factors being the strength of the linkage and press frame.

The advantage would be that the action of pressing, or transferring ones' weight onto a foot pedal allows hands free operation for alignment and so on, and the weight of the device would be considerably less than a flypress which might be overkill in terms of force deliverable. Any comments ?

[martin perman 1Participant @martinperman1]

Richard,

I wouldnt rely on the thread for holding the tooling as the force supplied may/would distort the thread and you then may have difficulty removing the tool, it would be best to make a threaded holder with a substantial shoulder and attach your tooling to it, a bored hole with clamp bolts to hold the punch in place.

Martin P

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi, I don't know if the Norton flypress number corresponds with the force that can be applied, but they do have a relationship to the weight of them in CWT's plus one quarter, which is about 50.8 Kg x the number plus 12.7 Kg. So a standard Norton No. 5 will weigh about 267 Kg. I think you may struggle even with three men trying to manhandle one of these and I doubt you will get more than three men around one to get an even proportion of weight for each man. They tend to be bottom heavy and the back always wants to roll round to the lowest point when they are tilted to any extent and they are not really friendly to get a good grip on. Even when I fetch my No. 3 bar flypress, which is only about 120 Kg, I needed two sets of chain blocks to get it off the bench it was on, a trolley to get it out of the building and then had to winch the trolley and press up onto my trailer. Personally, I wouldn't even consider man handling my No. 4 one with help, let alone a No. 5.

The one in Jason's link, is a deep throat version, which are a bit heavier than the standard ones and of course a No. 5 is physically a lot larger than a No. 2 with the swing handle on a larger radius, and you will need it fixed to an adequate bench/support as it will pack a fair old punch in use.

Regards Nick.

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi, this **LINK** may give you a guide to the force of different sizes of flypress.

Regards Nick.

[Richard Harris 5Participant @richardharris5]

I didn’t note but it’s a Sweeney #5. Shall we assume it’s likely roughly the same size and weight as a Norton? By which around 275Kg By the sounds of it… Which is quite scary, no? The Gross Payload Weight of the van is 625KG, so it’ll be able to move it safely. Its just loading it which sounds like an issue. At the moment it is just 3 of us using man power – I don’t believe this will be good enough, nor safe enough…

[Richard Harris 5Participant @richardharris5]

Posted by martin perman on 18/07/2018 20:33:17:

Richard,

I wouldnt rely on the thread for holding the tooling as the force supplied may/would distort the thread and you then may have difficulty removing the tool, it would be best to make a threaded holder with a substantial shoulder and attach your tooling to it, a bored hole with clamp bolts to hold the punch in place.

Martin P

Thanks Martin, that makes perfect sense. This I what I intended on doing, assuming it has a thread and I can get my lathe working. A thread + a significant shoulder on the tooling seems to make sense.

[Richard Harris 5Participant @richardharris5]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 18/07/2018 19:11:07:

A fly-press is a really good way of delivering a consistent blow to a die or stamp. Unfortunately I don't have room for one.

Richard's requirement could be met by any other way of delivering a straight blow to a stamp aligned with the work. With practice it can be done with a hammer, though I find it's not easy to acquire the knack of keeping a stamp straight while hitting it just hard enough to do the job.

An alternative might be to drop a weight down a pipe arranged to ensure that the weight hits the stamp square with a measured blow. The size of the blow delivered is determined by the size of the weight and by how far it falls. Once found, the blow can be repeated exactly. Like operating the fly-press, gauging the necessary violence (the drop) has to determined experimentally.

Not as easy as a fly press but the arrangement takes up less space.

Dave

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 18/07/2018 19:12:53

Thanks Dave. I did think about this a lot. Unfortunately as our hobbies have only been wood +Aluminum based, we just don't have any materials lying around to fabricate such things – I did actually sketch out a design for something similar to what you describe so I could price it up. Unfortunately it came ou to not much less than a fly press, with obviously much less flexibility. Room isn't exactly a concern, I just don't want to spend a great deal as this is already quite an expensive hobby overall. Plus, a fly press can be had for next to nothing I seems.

I'm not sure if I noted but I have tried the touchmark by hand and hammer with very inconsistent results. Some okay. Some very frustrating. The lettering I quite large and broad for a touchmark, so it's not really suited to hand and hammer, like a regular touchmaek with small and sharp lettering that bites in easily. I've trialed many times by hand, believe me, and just can't get good results. If I get the fly press and share a comparison which may help explain why I found this so difficult by hand (my own fault, really, I designed the touchmark).

[Richard Harris 5Participant @richardharris5]

Posted by ken king, King Design on 18/07/2018 19:47:37:

I can't help wondering whether a foot operated toggle press might be able to exert the force needed. If properly adjusted, so that the toggle linkage is just reaching a straight line at the end of the stroke, then the mechanical advantage theoretically approaches infinity, the limiting factors being the strength of the linkage and press frame.

The advantage would be that the action of pressing, or transferring ones' weight onto a foot pedal allows hands free operation for alignment and so on, and the weight of the device would be considerably less than a flypress which might be overkill in terms of force deliverable. Any comments ?

I didn't see some fly presses which were adapted to operate by a foot pedal, but they seem uncommon and vastly more expensive. I appreciate having both hands free but I believe with a simple jig / fence you can make most alignment problems go away. Keep in mind I am not in a workshop day in day out – this is just for one off projects where I can afford the time to tinker, so it hopefully won't be an issue. The next project is a wedding gift… Only 6 weeks to go! Haven't started any part of it, panic!

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Richard Harris 5 on 18/07/2018 22:58:19:

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 18/07/2018 19:11:07:

A fly-press is a really good way of delivering a consistent blow to a die or stamp. Unfortunately I don't have room for one.

Richard's requirement could be met by any other way of delivering a straight blow to a stamp aligned with the work. With practice it can be done with a hammer, though I find it's not easy to acquire the knack of keeping a stamp straight while hitting it just hard enough to do the job.

An alternative might be to drop a weight down a pipe arranged to ensure that the weight hits the stamp square with a measured blow. The size of the blow delivered is determined by the size of the weight and by how far it falls. Once found, the blow can be repeated exactly. Like operating the fly-press, gauging the necessary violence (the drop) has to determined experimentally.

Not as easy as a fly press but the arrangement takes up less space.

Dave

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 18/07/2018 19:12:53

Thanks Dave. I did think about this a lot. Unfortunately as our hobbies have only been wood +Aluminum based, we just don't have any materials lying around to fabricate such things – I did actually sketch out a design for something similar to what you describe so I could price it up. Unfortunately it came ou to not much less than a fly press, with obviously much less flexibility. Room isn't exactly a concern, I just don't want to spend a great deal as this is already quite an expensive hobby overall. Plus, a fly press can be had for next to nothing I seems.

I'm not sure if I noted but I have tried the touchmark by hand and hammer with very inconsistent results. Some okay. Some very frustrating. The lettering I quite large and broad for a touchmark, so it's not really suited to hand and hammer, like a regular touchmaek with small and sharp lettering that bites in easily. I've trialed many times by hand, believe me, and just can't get good results. If I get the fly press and share a comparison which may help explain why I found this so difficult by hand (my own fault, really, I designed the touchmark).

I empathise completely! I don't have a ready source of good scrap and used to waste time searching for it or bodging DIY Store alternatives. Economy was essential when my budget prioritised a growing family. Now I'm more inclined to buy exactly what I need, and that would include a fly-press if I had the space.

You may be having double trouble with hand and hammer because you're learning on a large blunt stamp. I do better with 3mm stamps than 6mm, I think because the extra effort needed to whack a 6mm stamp makes me less accurate. It took a fair bit of practice before I got moderately acceptable results, and they ain't good looking. Fortunately my marking needs are functional and ugly mistakes don't matter much!

Dave

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

Laser engraving??

pgk

[Richard Harris 5Participant @richardharris5]

Posted by pgk pgk on 19/07/2018 11:47:14:

Laser engraving??

pgk

I think a lot of people etch to some extent. The thing is the cost of an etcher that would etch steel, and then the aesthetic of it. I think with the effort of hot shaping steel, to laser etch it would be someone jarring and inorganic. To each their own of course!

[Richard Harris 5Participant @richardharris5]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 19/07/2018 10:39:46:

I empathise completely! I don't have a ready source of good scrap and used to waste time searching for it or bodging DIY Store alternatives. Economy was essential when my budget prioritised a growing family. Now I'm more inclined to buy exactly what I need, and that would include a fly-press if I had the space.

You may be having double trouble with hand and hammer because you're learning on a large blunt stamp. I do better with 3mm stamps than 6mm, I think because the extra effort needed to whack a 6mm stamp makes me less accurate. It took a fair bit of practice before I got moderately acceptable results, and they ain't good looking. Fortunately my marking needs are functional and ugly mistakes don't matter much!

Dave

I have much the same experience, Dave. I have some simple markings with those regular letter/number stamps which are sharp and defined, so bite into metals very easily. You can even cold stamp pretty easily, depending upon how big you go.

To give you an idea of why my design won't stamp cold or easily… it's 25mm… "england" is easily defined, sharp etc. But the initials RH are not, they're larger and have big "flat" areas. I have done too many testings to know that for me, I can't do this consistently with hand and hammer. Keep in mind the amount of work to get to the point of marking it is *extensive*, and you can then undo a lot of that work with an error, and then have to try and hammer the mistake away, it can all get very messy.

[Richard Harris 5Participant @richardharris5]

Picked it up this morning! Definitely not a #5 (which I'm thankful for, as no injuries), more like a #2. Can't see any marking but haven't inspected too closely yet. Excited to get it all cleaned up and setup to use. Will update with some before and after when possible. Thanks again for all the help and suggestions I've received on here, wonderful forum.

[Anonymous]

If it was a #5 you wouldn't be picking it up, you'd need a crane! Look forward to seeing pictures.

Andrew

[Richard Harris 5Participant @richardharris5]

Not terribly optimistic with my first quick test… barely left any sort of an imprint :/. I am however just using this on the floor, fiddling around. It's not bolted down. I think it needs to be bolted down to whatever it's sat on (desk, stand), otherwise it just shifts when you hammer it down and you lose all of the momentum. I would have hoped it would still work a bit better… but I guess I must set it up properly first before passing judgement!

[richardandtracyParticipant @richardandtracy]

Just thinking,

If it doesn't work well, could you locally draw the temper with a jewellers torch and use a wet cloth to limit the area heated? Once the small area of drawn temper is done, it might be soft enough to mark more easily.

Regards

Richard

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi Richard, you do really need it fixing down to something that will resist the force of the fly. Think of a hammer and punch, they don't work very well if your bench is not solid, no matter how hard you hit it, as the punch will just bounce all over the place.

Regards Nick.

[Richard Harris 5Participant @richardharris5]

Posted by richardandtracy on 30/07/2018 22:57:39:

Just thinking,

If it doesn't work well, could you locally draw the temper with a jewellers torch and use a wet cloth to limit the area heated? Once the small area of drawn temper is done, it might be soft enough to mark more easily.

Regards

Richard

These are all done red-orange hot – 800-850C sort of temperature. The steel is very soft at that point. If I did it on hardened then tempered steel, it would just bounce back off and possibly crack the thinner edge of the blade from the stress.

T

[Richard Harris 5Participant @richardharris5]

Yeah you're right Nick. It's definitely just bouncing all over the place. I did a date stamp on something which worked relatively well – but the numbers are small and sharp so it wasn't a surprise (If anything, I could do them deeper by hand, but they were even and lined up this way).

This is only a temporary setup as I wished to just get some things done whilst taking a couple of days off this week, but I did bolt it to the floor (don't have the meals for making a stand yet). But when I slammed the fly around it just ripped up the bolts and jolted the press over – meaning the energy was thrown out everywhere rather than just down into the tool / work. I've since tried "gluing" the bolts into the concrete with some very high strength stuff designed for these materials – yet to see if it's effective or not.

As for building a stand eventually… Box section filled with sand? Then the feet bolted to the floor? I am a bit skeptical still… Just seeing how it moved even when bolted down (but not glued), the idea of adding a stand to the mix just feels like it would make it even weaker.

Posted by Nicholas Farr on 30/07/2018 23:46:09:

Hi Richard, you do really need it fixing down to something that will resist the force of the fly. Think of a hammer and punch, they don't work very well if your bench is not solid, no matter how hard you hit it, as the punch will just bounce all over the place.

Regards Nick.

Yeah

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