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  • #27698
    duncan webster 1
    Participant
      @duncanwebster1
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      #500766
      duncan webster 1
      Participant
        @duncanwebster1

        I ordered 10 off bespoke pcbs from a company in China, quoted price $7 (£5.70), which I thought very reasonable. Postage via DHL $27 (£21.95), which isn't cheap, but I knew about it before I placed the order. I have now received a text from DHL stating that I owe VAT of somewhere over £5, which is fair enough, someone has to pay for the NHS, but DHL want a handling fee of £11, which I think is a total rip off. I don't appear to have any option, if I don't pay up front they won't deliver, but let others be aware.

        Anyone know a UK based firm which will do 10 off boards 4" * 2.5" single sided at a reasonable cost? I know I could make tem myself, but drilling all those holes accurately to fit multipin chips would 'do my head in'

        #500770
        JasonB
        Moderator
          @jasonb

          Not really any more than Parcel Force would charge for their handling fee. I always figure VAT, any import duty and a fee into anything bought from abroad

          #500781
          Michael Gilligan
          Participant
            @michaelgilligan61133
            Posted by duncan webster on 11/10/2020 13:42:33:

            I ordered 10 off bespoke pcbs from a company in China, quoted price $7 (£5.70) …

            .

            That’s strange … there used to be a £15 [value of the item] threshold

            Has HMRC changed the rules again question

            MichaelG.

            .

            Edit: … or did you buy ten boards at £5.70 each ?

            Edited By Michael Gilligan on 11/10/2020 14:16:58

            #500784
            Roderick Jenkins
            Participant
              @roderickjenkins93242

              VAT is charged on postage and packing so the value is above the limit.

              #500787
              LADmachining
              Participant
                @ladmachining

                I always stomach the slower delivery time via standard post rather than risk the extra costs with DHL.

                That said, even with the import duty and fees, I think the PCBs will still work out cheaper than sourcing them from a fab in the UK or EU.

                PCBshopper.com is a good price comparison site forPCB manufacture.

                To get an idea of EU costs, have a look at Eurocircuits – your 10x 4"x2.5" single sided boards on a 7-day turnaround time are at least 115 EUR!

                #500791
                Michael Gilligan
                Participant
                  @michaelgilligan61133
                  Posted by Roderick Jenkins on 11/10/2020 14:31:57:

                  VAT is charged on postage and packing so the value is above the limit.

                  .

                   

                  The threshold for imported items was £15 for the purchase [excluding postage and packing] … but if the threshold was exceeded then VAT was charged on the total.

                  The ‘value’ is [was?] what was declared on the Customs form
                  [converted to GBP at the point of entry into the UK]

                  Unless something has changed recently; the rules [whilst rather convoluted] are very clearly described on the .gov website.

                  MichaelG.

                  Edited By Michael Gilligan on 11/10/2020 15:35:39

                  #500809
                  Michael Gilligan
                  Participant
                    @michaelgilligan61133
                    #500813
                    Vic
                    Participant
                      @vic

                      As far as I am aware most delivery companies charge a “handling” fee of around ten pounds. I’ve certainly had to pay the ransom to Parcel Force and UPS before.

                      #500815
                      Roderick Jenkins
                      Participant
                        @roderickjenkins93242

                        Michael,

                        I agree, the rules are well described but open to interpretation. The authorities may well take the view that p&p three times the value of the goods is an attempt to circumvent the rules and wait for the customer to challenge the charge.

                        Cheers,

                        Rod

                        #500818
                        Michael Gilligan
                        Participant
                          @michaelgilligan61133

                          Posted by Roderick Jenkins on 11/10/2020 16:55:20:

                          .

                          … and wait for the customer to challenge the charge.

                           

                          .

                          Which is exactly what Duncan should do

                          MichaelG.

                          .

                          PostScript: This may, or may not, be the company that Duncan used … and the link might be removed by a Moderator for CoC reasons … but it is a clear statement from a Supplier who obviously understands the process.

                          https://support.jlcpcb.com/article/89-customs-duties-and-taxes

                          Edited By Michael Gilligan on 11/10/2020 17:23:05

                          #500828
                          duncan webster 1
                          Participant
                            @duncanwebster1

                            It seems DHL are following the rules, but £11 to handle £5 is still a rip off, it can't cost them anything like that, probably all done by computer and costs buttons. The argument that it is comparable with other shippers only shows that they are all ripping us off.

                            I wish I'd known about the PCBshopper site, including postage that would have been <£15 so exempt

                             

                            Edited By duncan webster on 11/10/2020 17:46:07

                            #500834
                            JasonB
                            Moderator
                              @jasonb

                              I suppose you fell foul of the law of average, would you be complaining if that £11 charge was applied to a £2000 item?

                              #500840
                              Michael Gilligan
                              Participant
                                @michaelgilligan61133
                                Posted by duncan webster on 11/10/2020 17:45:35:

                                It seems DHL are following the rules …

                                .

                                O.K. I am bewildered … The £15 threshold value should not include the shipping costs

                                … or did your supplier lump it all together on the Customs Declaration ?

                                MichaelG.

                                #500857
                                blowlamp
                                Participant
                                  @blowlamp

                                  Rip offs are everywhere.

                                  #500865
                                  duncan webster 1
                                  Participant
                                    @duncanwebster1

                                    My interpretation of the rules is that the £15 threshold includes postage, my grouse is that I don't believe it costs anything like £11 to collect VAT, no matter what the VAT is. It will all be done automatically by a computer, and they must be doing thousands of these transactions a day.

                                    #500869
                                    Steve Pavey
                                    Participant
                                      @stevepavey65865

                                      The last order that DHL delivered to me from China attracted customs duties. The problem was that they didn’t bother to inform or invoice me, instead just sending a threatening email informing me of late payment and possible legal action. I emailed them back telling them that they hadn’t bothered to send an invoice or inform me in any way about the duty (and could easily have done so when the delivered the item), but this was completely ignored – they just sent another threatening email.

                                      #500882
                                      Michael Gilligan
                                      Participant
                                        @michaelgilligan61133
                                        Posted by duncan webster on 11/10/2020 20:33:11:

                                        My interpretation of the rules is that the £15 threshold includes postage, […]

                                         

                                        .

                                        If that’s your interpretation, Duncan … You best just pay-up

                                        [ it’s not mine ]

                                        MichaelG.
                                        .

                                        .

                                        a89b93f7-a041-4f17-9fff-c875f52b727e.jpeg

                                        Edited By Michael Gilligan on 11/10/2020 22:14:05

                                        #500888
                                        Michael Gilligan
                                        Participant
                                          @michaelgilligan61133

                                          DHL’s information on this seems to imply that they use the same interpretation as Duncan.

                                          In my opinion, this interpretation is wrong.

                                          .

                                          In the text quoted in my previous post, it is my understanding that:

                                          Second bullet : “other goods worth more than £15

                                          does not have the same meaning as : “the total value” mentioned later.

                                          … It provides a decision point based on the ‘worth’ of the goods, rather than the total expenditure.

                                          .

                                          Happily, this has been my experience to date.

                                          MichaelG.

                                          .

                                          I may, of course, be wrong !!

                                          Edited By Michael Gilligan on 11/10/2020 23:32:20

                                          #500889
                                          duncan webster 1
                                          Participant
                                            @duncanwebster1

                                            I'll ask HMRC tomorrow if I can get through. I'll try the ouija board first

                                            #500890
                                            duncan webster 1
                                            Participant
                                              @duncanwebster1

                                              Michael, see para 3.1 of value of goods. It says to me that the value reckonable for VAT is goods plus transport

                                              #500900
                                              Michael Gilligan
                                              Participant
                                                @michaelgilligan61133
                                                Posted by duncan webster on 12/10/2020 00:34:56:

                                                Michael, see para 3.1 of value of goods. It says to me that the value reckonable for VAT is goods plus transport

                                                .

                                                Good Morning, Duncan

                                                Yes, I am aware of that … and it is consistent with the ‘total value’ usage

                                                My point was that different terminology is used for the threshold decision point:

                                                “ other goods worth more than £15 “

                                                I have always believed there to be an important distinction between the worth of the goods, and the total value reckonable for VAT

                                                … if you do get clarification from HMRC, I would be very interested.

                                                MichaelG.

                                                #500922
                                                Howi
                                                Participant
                                                  @howi

                                                  DHL are fantastic for fast delivery from anywhere in the world, import charges are a major factor when determining whether to use them or not.

                                                  Price you are charged is price of goods + postage. only really worth it if total you pay would be less than uk purchase.

                                                  China post is quite quick these days + very little chance of paying import duty/fees, one should always factor it in though, just in case.

                                                  #500924
                                                  SillyOldDuffer
                                                  Moderator
                                                    @sillyoldduffer
                                                    Posted by Michael Gilligan on 12/10/2020 07:39:33:

                                                    Posted by duncan webster on 12/10/2020 00:34:56:

                                                    Michael, see para 3.1 of value of goods. It says to me that the value reckonable for VAT is goods plus transport

                                                    .

                                                    My point was that different terminology is used for the threshold decision point:

                                                    “ other goods worth more than £15 “

                                                    I have always believed there to be an important distinction between the worth of the goods, and the total value reckonable for VAT

                                                    Michael's right; the gov.uk wording is ambiguous. However, it may not alter the price of fish. Most of the information on gov.uk is a simplified summary of the actual legislation with a big risk important details are lost in translation. I think it would be necessary to read the hideously complicated source, and to check case law to ensure the point hasn't already been clarified.

                                                    I doubt DHL are profiteering significantly. Their core business is delivering packages but at borders they have to meet customs obligations involving extra checks and admin. That means employees, tax, office-space, computer systems, recovering money from customers, dealing with refusals and a shower of other overheads. As always, the customer pays…

                                                    Dave

                                                    #500937
                                                    duncan webster 1
                                                    Participant
                                                      @duncanwebster1

                                                      Got through to HMRC, quite painless really on webchat. The 'cost of goods' includes postage, so VAT is payable, but in answer to SOD, I've already paid them to bring it from China, DHL know about borders, the handling charge should have bee included in the original cost then I'd have known about it upfront and been able to not buy if I so chose. I don't pay £11 VAT collection charge to Screwfix when I buy something, it's all done by the little grey cells of a computer.

                                                      As it is the total cost is still less than any European supplier, but I hate being held to ransom

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