3 phase motor on single phase

3 phase motor on single phase

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  • #257874
    Steve Pavey
    Participant
      @stevepavey65865

      I've just acquired a 6 x 4" bandsaw – been in a few fights but basically sound enough apart from a few details, one of which is the motor. It's an AEG, frame size 80 but with no data plate. Having looked in the terminal box I've decided it is a 3 phase, and has a capacitor wired in – I think this is called a Steinmetz connection.

      I've measured the resistance of the windings at 12.3 ohms, and when it's running the voltages across the windings are 242v L to N, 201v and 156v. That seems a bit too unbalanced to me, so I'm not surprised that it gets a bit warm – I cut some 50mm round bar this evening, and I thought it best to switch off after one cut and leave it to cool off. Also, the motor seems to lack a sense of direction or needs a kick start to get it spinning, so maybe the capacitor is on the way out.

      So, the question is, what size capacitor? My thoughts are that the motor is probably 750watts based on the frame size. This points me to a capacitor of around 50 mF (micro far ads, can't do a mu on this tablet) based on the rule of thumb of 70% of the wattage rating. I have no capacitance meter and in any case if it's failing I'll get a suspect reading. Anyone got any better ideas (maybe based on the winding resistances and voltage readings?)

      Edited By Steve Pavey on 25/09/2016 20:40:06

      #24761
      Steve Pavey
      Participant
        @stevepavey65865
        #257875
        Muzzer
        Participant
          @muzzer

          Use a "u" for micro eg "uF".

          #257891
          John Haine
          Participant
            @johnhaine32865

            Are you sure it's 3 phase and not just a capacitor start and run motor? Is there not a value marked on the capacitor? My brother has a heat pump with a failing fan that has the same problem of not knowing which way to start. Maplin seem to have motor run caps at good prices.

            #257900
            Steve Pavey
            Participant
              @stevepavey65865

              There are six connections coming from within the motor to the terminal block. Although I haven't taken the motor apart I can't hear a centrifugal switch. The terminal posts are marked u1 v1 w1 u2 v2 and w2. If it is a 3 phase motor then it is connected in delta, with the capacitor connected across a different set of windings to the L and N connections. There are no markings on the capacitor – it's had a hard life, a couple of paint jobs and a few dents.

              #257908
              Vic
              Participant
                @vic

                I used a rating of 70uf per 1Kw on my motor so 50uf sounds about right for your motor.

                #257911
                J Hancock
                Participant
                  @jhancock95746

                  Reads like a 3-phase motor to me.

                  It can and is done( !) but don't expect miracles of performance running it on a 'phase change' capacitor supply.

                  #257913
                  john fletcher 1
                  Participant
                    @johnfletcher1

                    From my experience, I think you need more capacitance, just how much I don't exactly know. I have done the same prior to inverters, fortunately I had a lot of high voltage capacitors to play around with. When the voltages were much closer than yours and when the motor sounded right, every thing was OK. I connected an ammeter and a voltmeter into the circuit and initially found one phase was drawing a lot more current and the motor obviously getting hot until I got the capacitance values right. Connect capacitors in parallel to increase capacitance and in series to reduce the value. Ex fluorescent light fitting capacitors are suitable source of capacitors. John

                    #257919
                    Vic
                    Participant
                      @vic

                      I read some time ago that it is not at all uncommon for three phase motors to be fitted to appliances intended for 240V single phase supply. I ran my three phase milling machine on single phase for several years before I sold it. As said the guidance I read said continuous duty type capacitor, 70uf per 1Kw motor size and rated at 1.2 times line voltage.

                      #258434
                      Steve Pavey
                      Participant
                        @stevepavey65865

                        An update – I fitted a 50uF capacitor yesterday, and the motor now starts in the correct direction and without needing a helping hand to get it spinning. So the original capacitor was more than likely faulty. The only problem is that the phase voltages are now 194 and 184v (and obviously 240v across the L and N terminals). Back to eBay for another capacitor – if only there was a proper formula for calculating the correct size without all this time wasting and expensive trial and error!

                        #258439
                        John Rudd
                        Participant
                          @johnrudd16576

                          Steve,

                          Have a look at….

                          http://files.engineering.com/download.aspx?folder=c6f36cf3-a6f6-402e-94f1-489126875c60&file=3_Phase_to_1_Phase.pdf

                          It may help in your quest for the right cap….

                          #258442
                          duncan webster 1
                          Participant
                            @duncanwebster1

                            You won't get it perfect. There is a little book called 'electric motors in the home workshop' which goes into this in detail. I can scan the relevant chapter if you wish, send me a pm with your e-mail. Having said that it's a good little book and doesn't cost much.

                            #258449
                            SillyOldDuffer
                            Moderator
                              @sillyoldduffer
                              Posted by John Rudd on 29/09/2016 13:01:10:

                              Steve,

                              Have a look at….

                              http://files.engineering.com/download.aspx?folder=c6f36cf3-a6f6-402e-94f1-489126875c60&file=3_Phase_to_1_Phase.pdf

                              It may help in your quest for the right cap….

                              Interesting formula. It calls for the Output Power of the motor to be expressed in Cheval Vapeur, which is the first time I've come across that unit since that little Citroen car. (Ah, there's one parked down Memory Lane.)

                              I expect British Horse Power can be used in the formula without upsetting the result.

                              Dave

                              Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 29/09/2016 13:27:33

                              #258459
                              Steve Pavey
                              Participant
                                @stevepavey65865

                                Thanks, that's very useful info (and I've never heard of chevalier vapeur before despite my engineering background). I'll have a go with a 40uF as recommended by John's formula.

                                #258460
                                John Rudd
                                Participant
                                  @johnrudd16576
                                  Posted by Steve Pavey on 29/09/2016 14:08:20:

                                  Thanks, that's very useful info (and I've never heard of chevalier vapeur before despite my engineering background). I'll have a go with a 40uF as recommended by John's formula.

                                  Well I do hope the cap does the job…..please dont blame 'John's formula'…..it was something I found via google and thought it may assist you rather than just guessing…frown

                                  #258477
                                  Speedy Builder5
                                  Participant
                                    @speedybuilder5

                                    One Chevaux-vapeur:-

                                    cheval-vapeur-voiture.jpg

                                    #262744
                                    j malcolm price
                                    Participant
                                      @jmalcolmprice74576

                                      single

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