play in bearing to spindle

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play in bearing to spindle

This topic has 32 replies, 11 voices, and was last updated 8 January 2015 at 21:46 by Ian L2.

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2 January 2015 at 18:58 #23651
Ian L2
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@ianl2
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2 January 2015 at 18:58 #174460
Ian L2
Participant
@ianl2
Any ideas or is it acceptable? I have receive new bearing today and as I assemble it I'm finding some play. The bearing is suppose to slide to take up end float and pre-load. The dti is in mm. If you watch the bearing close you will see it rocks a little best seen after I zero dti. Would the movement get better or worse as spindle warms up? Is there anything like bearing lock that would take up the movement but still allow bearing inner race to slide.

Just editing to say dti end is on inner race.

[video src="http://vid1118.photobucket.com/albums/k620/irlunn/lathe/My%20Movie%20bearing.mp4" /]

Edited By Ian L2 on 02/01/2015 19:02:19
2 January 2015 at 19:29 #174464
Bob Brown 1
Participant
@bobbrown1
Looking at the video I'm not sure just what you are measuring, if the spindle is assembled is there play in the spindle?

Is there any sign or wear on the shaft?

Bob
2 January 2015 at 19:38 #174465
JasonB
Moderator
@jasonb
Are you saying the inner section is a loose fit on the spindle as it looks like it is moving to me.

Video here
2 January 2015 at 20:03 #174471
Ian L2
Participant
@ianl2
Hi Guys Yes the bearing inner race rocks on shaft. Shaft has been skimmed using old bearing to check fit as the old bearing would not move (slide) and needed hydraulic press to remove it. Thinking just tadd to much has been took off. looks like 0.05mm on dti.
2 January 2015 at 20:16 #174475
JasonB
Moderator
@jasonb
Should be a press fit on the shaft,
2 January 2015 at 21:36 #174484
Russell Eberhardt
Participant
@russelleberhardt48058
Posted by JasonB on 02/01/2015 20:16:02:

Should be a press fit on the shaft,

I think that would be too tight. The bearing at this end of the spindle has to slide along the spindle to adjust the preload on the bearingsby the action of the threaded collar on the thread visible in the video. I suspect that the reason this thread was damaged in the first place was because the old bearing had seized onto the shaft.

Having said that, 0.05 mm diametric clearance is too great. Something like 0.01 mm clearance should give a good push fit.

The shaft should not have been skimmed, polishing with some fine emery should have done the trick. Unfortunately the only option now would be to build up the shaft again, perhaps by electroplating.

Russell.
2 January 2015 at 22:33 #174491
Ian L2
Participant
@ianl2
Posted by Russell Eberhardt on 02/01/2015 21:36:15:

Posted by JasonB on 02/01/2015 20:16:02:

Should be a press fit on the shaft,

I think that would be too tight. The bearing at this end of the spindle has to slide along the spindle to adjust the preload on the bearingsby the action of the threaded collar on the thread visible in the video. I suspect that the reason this thread was damaged in the first place was because the old bearing had seized onto the shaft.

Having said that, 0.05 mm diametric clearance is too great. Something like 0.01 mm clearance should give a good push fit.

The shaft should not have been skimmed, polishing with some fine emery should have done the trick. Unfortunately the only option now would be to build up the shaft again, perhaps by electroplating.

Russell.

Thought that might be the case, will make some enquires next week. Does electroplating build up uniform in thickness or will it need re-skimming after?
2 January 2015 at 23:01 #174494
Bob Brown 1
Participant
@bobbrown1
Electroplating should if done correctly build up an even coating and you should be able to calculate the amount of material applied by current and time but nothing to stop the item being measured, I would be inclined to nickel plate.

You can get DIY kits.

Bob
3 January 2015 at 09:45 #174528
Ian S C
Participant
@iansc
Before attacking the shaft, try fitting the bearing with Loctite bearing retainer, it works. The place I used it was the top bearing on my Rexon mill drill after the bearing spun in it's housing, but I have used it on other types of machinery to fit the bearing to the shaft.

Ian S C
3 January 2015 at 10:14 #174544
Ian L2
Participant
@ianl2
Posted by Ian S C on 03/01/2015 09:45:57:

Before attacking the shaft, try fitting the bearing with Loctite bearing retainer, it works. The place I used it was the top bearing on my Rexon mill drill after the bearing spun in it's housing, but I have used it on other types of machinery to fit the bearing to the shaft.

Ian S C

Hi Ian S C

Wont it also stop the pre-load adjustment and being able to loosen the pre-load when not being used. When bearing is fitted using bearing retainer how hard is it to remove should one need to? I'm wondering if the original had been fitted with the use if it which would also explain why the old bearing (which did not come off easy) does not have as much movement (but still has some) if there,s thin layer still on inner race.
3 January 2015 at 10:30 #174549
pgk pgk
Participant
@pgkpgk17461
I notice that your thread goes to a shoulder. If all else fails could one not turn down to the bearing point, fit a heat expanded sleeve and then recut?
3 January 2015 at 10:54 #174560
Ian L2
Participant
@ianl2
Posted by pgk pgk on 03/01/2015 10:30:23:

I notice that your thread goes to a shoulder. If all else fails could one not turn down to the bearing point, fit a heat expanded sleeve and then recut?

Hi pgk

Not sure what you mean?
3 January 2015 at 15:25 #174599
oldvelo
Participant
@oldvelo
Hi Ian

Read you reply to Ian S C it appears that the bearing had been "Loctited" before and was successful

You have to work quickly when setting preload on a bearing when using Loctite before it sets.

The bearing manufacturer can supply the information on how much torque-resistance is required.

or

A product I have used is "Ezi-Sleeve" to slide on to a shaft that has been damaged were an oil seal has run

Perhaps this may be of some use

Try an E-Mail to them @

info@castleinternational.com.au or their website

http://www.castleinternational.com.au

Eric
4 January 2015 at 10:01 #174666
Ian S C
Participant
@iansc
With Bearing lock the bearing can be moved with ordinary bearing tools, it's not a shaft lock. The original bearing wasn't going to move much, pressed on the shaft, the shoulder I presume locates the bearing inner race.

Ian S C
4 January 2015 at 11:01 #174680
Ian L2
Participant
@ianl2
Posted by Ian S C on 04/01/2015 10:01:48:

With Bearing lock the bearing can be moved with ordinary bearing tools, it's not a shaft lock. The original bearing wasn't going to move much, pressed on the shaft, the shoulder I presume locates the bearing inner race.

Ian S C

Hi Ian S C

I will try get photo later but the bearing does not go up-to the shoulder, the outer race is held ridged in housing and the inner race pushed into the rollers taking up movement & pre-loading by collar being tightened (not much more that hand tight) and locked using grub screw onto threads.

If I end up using lock tight I will have to keep rotating the spindle every now and then so as to not cause bearing damage (not sure how often one should rotate) not beyond the realms of automatically doing this on time clock.

Need to look at cost to get shaft electroplated and ground to correct tolerance then I can decide which way to go.

Photos added:-

Edited By Ian L2 on 04/01/2015 11:31:47
4 January 2015 at 11:35 #174685
speelwerk
Participant
@speelwerk
Before you start electroplating you can try if thin brass foil (0.025 mm) wrapped around the spindle does it, Niko.
4 January 2015 at 12:00 #174690
Russell Eberhardt
Participant
@russelleberhardt48058
Contrary to what has been said above, the bearing pre-load isn't set cold. According to the handbook the correct procedure is to run the lathe for 30 to 60 minutes to warm up the spindle. The adjustment nut should then be loosened until play is observed in the spindle ( I use a dial gauge to monitor the end float). The adjustment nut is then carefully tightened until the end float is just zero and then tightened another 1/16 of a turn and locked in place with the grub screw.

The above procedure would seem to prohibit the use of Loctite as it will set before the adjustment can be made.

As long as the finish on the spindle is good it shouldn't be necessary to grind it after plating. You only need about 1 thou of plating so the finish on the spindle will come through on the plating. Someone suggested a home nickel plating kit. It's about 40 years since I did any nickel plating at home but it wasn't too difficult so I think it's worth having a go. You will need to mask the screw thread as you don't want to build that up.

One more observation. From your photos you seem to have flat disks instead of the part 10A-3 dust cover shown in the parts list and fitted to my Atlas. It may be that this was a design change for your split casting version of the headstock but it's worth checking.

Russell.
4 January 2015 at 15:20 #174717
Russell Eberhardt
Participant
@russelleberhardt48058
Hmm… just done a quick calculation. From Faraday's Law and using a typical current density of 50 A/m^2 it looks as if it will take about 14 days to build up the required thickness of nickel (unless I've dropped a zero somewhere!). So, plenty of time for keeping a check on the diameter.

Russell
4 January 2015 at 15:35 #174720
Ian L2
Participant
@ianl2
Posted by speelwerk on 04/01/2015 11:35:03:

Before you start electroplating you can try if thin brass foil (0.025 mm) wrapped around the spindle does it, Niko.

Niko

Will give it a go wont cost much and its not permanent so now't to loose. But know idea where I can get it from! what's it used for might point me in direction of supply.

Russell will check on your flat disk comment as in box parts there is some more parts which looking at them have hot been fitted for some years.

As it happens I've had it running today all be it on the old bearings as I was interested to see how it ran with the old ones and I only needed to get some parts rotating to clean with wet and dry. Well its not as smooth as one would expect so here is my predicament:-

(A) It could be the old bearings that aren't as good as could be. Don't really want to fit new ones at chuck end yet as once its on it's stopping on.

(B) It could be the m/c shop that skimmed it did not have it bob on. Would hope not the case as its pretty good place with CNC, m/c's and they were aware of what it was for The place i work use them and (

(C) The movement this thread was started for is the cause.

(D) Spindle is bent.

(E) 3 Jaw chuck is not up to much. I'm measuring with DTI on face of backing plate where it screws to spindle. I will pop chuck back off and see if there's any where else I can get DTi.

Probably need to get spindle checked for trueness to start with But not sure how I can do it as I've not another lathe!
4 January 2015 at 16:26 #174727
Russell Eberhardt
Participant
@russelleberhardt48058
Have a look at the sectional view of the headstock I put in my album (Misc folder) a while back. You should see that there is a flanged pressed steel part fitted either side of the bearing. That's what I was referring to. In your picture it looks as if the front disk is trapped between the bearing and the end of the spindle. Like that it will just rotate and fling the oil everywhere. It should be flanged and a push fit into the headstock casting and have a small clearance to the spindle.

Can you explain what you mean by "not as smooth as one would expect". Do you mean that there is vibration or grittiness? Or do you mean that it has a wobble as it rotates?

The place to check for the spindle running true is on the register behind the thread on the spindle nose. I get 0.005 mm on the cylindrical part and 0.01 mm and I've never changed the bearings in the 40 years I've owned the lathe although I did remove them and give them a good clean in solvent.

Russell
4 January 2015 at 16:34 #174728
speelwerk
Participant
@speelwerk
Will give it a go wont cost much and its not permanent so now't to loose. But know idea where I can get it from! what's it used for might point me in direction of supply.

This is what I use but no doubt there is UK supplier.

http://shop.vogel-germany.de/product_info.php?language=en&info=p4826_thickness-gauge-foil-din-1544–brass–0-025-mm–2500-mm-x-150-mm.html&=

It is very thin and you will have to experiment with it what the best way is to use it, if you can use it at all. Niko.

They also have it in stainless with a thickness of 0.010 and 0.020 mm.

Edited By speelwerk on 04/01/2015 16:41:19
4 January 2015 at 16:43 #174730
Neil Wyatt
Moderator
@neilwyatt
Hi Russell,

I think you slipped an order or two of magnitude somewhere.

This page suggests that 2 amp-hours will plate 1 square decimeter to 25 µm (which is effectively a thou).

That's four times your current, but an hour is a lot less than a quarter of 14 days!

Neil
4 January 2015 at 17:07 #174735
Russell Eberhardt
Participant
@russelleberhardt48058
Thanks Neil. Must have had too much wine with my lunch!

Russell.
4 January 2015 at 18:14 #174744
Ian L2
Participant
@ianl2
Posted by Russell Eberhardt on 04/01/2015 16:26:45:

Can you explain what you mean by "not as smooth as one would expect". Do you mean that there is vibration or grittiness? Or do you mean that it has a wobble as it rotates?

The place to check for the spindle running true is on the register behind the thread on the spindle nose. I get 0.005 mm on the cylindrical part and 0.01 mm and I've never changed the bearings in the 40 years I've owned the lathe although I did remove them and give them a good clean in solvent.

Russell

Vibrates and sounds clunky but that might be the belts as one is incorrect size and both very old (new one ordered) and appears to run eccentric to the eye.

Tried to get Dti on the register behind chick but Dti jumps like a good-den which is not surprising as having close look, the surface is bit damaged. I had drop M. T in spindle and Dti on that, M.T rusty. cleaned with wet n dry tried again, M.T still does not feel quite right. suspect inside spindle not clean so need to get something to clean inside Spindle And a New M.T. Will have another go then.
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