Which Milling machine and what is its footprint?

[Steve WithnellParticipant @stevewithnell34426]

Posted by Bazyle on 02/07/2020 00:18:50:

My Warco minor mill drill fits on a 2×2 bench. They don't stock them anymore just the bigger Major but the equivalents from several importers appear on ebay every week. Perfectly adequate for small work though people like to moan about round column mills. Tilting head is just another thing to go out of true. Tilting vice is dead cheap.

I still have my Warco minor and won't part with it. If you fit a DRO to the Z-axis and think through the machining process when setting up it's perfectly sound. It's also a very good co-ordinate drilling machine. One benefit is that it runs slow enough to cut gears (I've used mine to cut small bevel gears) and run slitting saws.

Good workhorse!

I agree, tilting the work during setup is a better option.

[Roger BestParticipant @rogerbest89007]

Thanks Stuart,

The SX2.7L has a useful table, it makes the Axminster version look very small.

Thanks Steve

Its nice to know that the smaller machines are adequate for challenging work.

[Roger BestParticipant @rogerbest89007]

Hi folks

I have finally been able to get some woodwork done and the depth of the bench is now 500mm.

I have had a good look at the SX2.7L, there is a fair chance it will fit. A 3.5 is just too big.

The Warco WM16B is looking very attractive, its drip tray would fit on the bench,as its only 482 deep, 520 wide according to the website. I have been in contact and they are opening the demo room with gloves and masks mandatory, so I will pop over when I can.

Its obvious that the Sieg has a deeper vertical casting which is bound to make it stiffer. At the moment the decision may be based on Warco being over an hour closer to my home.

I have had a look on ebay, but "affordable" machines seem to be trashed, the rest seem a lot of money compared to a new Chinese machine with a warranty.

Thanks for all the help, I will report what happens when I get round there, hopefully in a couple of weeks. .

[Nick Clarke 3Participant @nickclarke3]

Posted by Roger Best on 04/07/2020 22:38:03:

So on the basis that I don't want to have to upgrade in the future, I want good quality, I want to buy new, rather than fix up an old machine, I will be keeping to the smaller end of the model engineering, 3 1/2" gauge rail and probably 2" or smaller 3" scale traction engines, what machine should I get??

Thanks for all of your advice.

If you only need the capacity to work on 3½" gauge locos then quite a small mill will do the job, but the larger you go the more rigid and powerful a machine is what you will get, all to the good. I suspect that your traction engines might demand a larger machine.

If you are buying new many machines are clones of others so you now need to consider cost and customer service from the supplier – always remembering that it would be unusual for any one customer to have bought several milling machines of about the same size from different suppliers, so you will only ever get partial answers – someone who has had good service from one supplier has not necessarily had bad service from all of the others, and vice versa.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

The SX2.7 standard length table is actully 45mm longer than my next machine up X3 and that coped easily with a large 2" traction engine.

SX2.7 looks like it was made to fit a 500mm bench

[Roger BestParticipant @rogerbest89007]

Thanks Nick

I have noted the multiple clones, there was even a German-branded version on UK Ebay the other week. Service and support is paramount to me when we are considering modest quality items.

Thanks Jason, that is exactly what l was looking for, its a shame the vendors don't think about such practicalities.

[Roger BestParticipant @rogerbest89007]

Hi guys

A Warco 16B has been ordered, along with some bits and bobs to get me going. Its pretty small in the flesh, very quiet though. Warco's showroom is amazing.

The bench is all but complete. Ironically after all the effort and discussion, a mistake on the Warco website might mean that the drip tray might overlap the bench edge, but everything is about compromise so I didn't change my mind at the last minute. I have done a video that just needs the last bits done before publishing.

[Roger BestParticipant @rogerbest89007]

[Roger BestParticipant @rogerbest89007]

The milling machine is at Warco, its due to have the DRO fitted before being delivered.

Its going to be a big job to get it on the bench so I have asked for a quote for that.

I realised that the lathe was where it could be erected, not as close as it could be to the wall, so I pushed it over using a car jack. there is now just enough space to get the mill in if we take off the front crank handle.

 

Edited By Roger Best on 06/09/2020 22:19:26

[Stuart Smith 5Participant @stuartsmith5]

Roger

It is relatively easy to split into 3 parts that can be lifted by 2 people.

I bought my WM 16 secondhand and took the head and the table off to move it. This just left the base and column together. It was in a 1st floor workshop at the previous owners house and we carried the 3 parts downstairs and into my car without any problem. Same to reassemble at my house.

Stuart

[Roger BestParticipant @rogerbest89007]

Ta Stuart

I had hoped to avoid that, but if needs must…

Fortunately there is some guidance available on the matter.

Edited By Roger Best on 07/09/2020 16:08:34

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

At only 113kg total weight, the parts cannot be too heavy individually.

I think it was the column of my Centec that was ’a bit of struggle’ to lift, on my own, in the confined space of my workshop.🙂 Two persons should be able to get it on your bench in one piece? (Oh, sorry mod, it must need four at least🙂 ).

Removal of the head or table would make it more manageable.

[Roger BestParticipant @rogerbest89007]

Quote received – £1000

I know that a proper job would be expensive but that was a bit steep for me, I shall put the money towards the labour of something I don't find satisfying.

Its ready to send to me so I hope it won't be long.

[Roger BestParticipant @rogerbest89007]

Ramp sorted. The floor should have been higher but the builder gave up before a nice thick self- levelling screed had been laid so I had to do something myself.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by not done it yet on 07/09/2020 17:58:55:

At only 113kg total weight, the parts cannot be too heavy individually.

I think it was the column of my Centec that was ’a bit of struggle’ to lift, on my own, in the confined space of my workshop.🙂 Two persons should be able to get it on your bench in one piece? (Oh, sorry mod, it must need four at least🙂 ).

Removal of the head or table would make it more manageable.

Readers should know that NDIY was brought up on a farm and is a second Milos of Croton. Thinks nothing of carrying a couple of 50kg sacks on his daily half-marathon. On the other hand I have to stop for a rest before jumping into bed.

Before lifting heavy objects know your limitations.

Roger's problem will be the cramped space rather than the weight. Not sure how I'd do it. Maybe hoist the mill slung on a pole between a few blokes? Or take it up to bench level a few inches at a time on a tower made of 2×4? Or a motor bilke lift. Anyone got any safe suggestions?

Dave

[Roger BestParticipant @rogerbest89007]

Ta Dave, I am expecting to have to strip it down to a two-man lift but I may have to move it off the drive on my own.

I have a rope pulley that is good for this weight, so I just need to fit a lifting beam….

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

You seem to be making a big issue about the lift. I see two breeze block walls in an outhous, not a nicely papered living room. All you have to do is screw some pieces of 4×2 horizontally to the wall near the ceiling, run a bit of 4×4 fencepost between them and you have something to dangle an Haltrac style hoist from. Once you have lifted it up to bench height dangling over the gap you just pop a pallet up against the wall and a plank from that to the bench, lower the machine onto the plank but keep it on the hoist for safety as you slide it into position.
£1000 phooey. For less you could buy a motorbike lift table and throw it away afterwards.

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Covid has changed things, but simple ideas from me would be to set a challenge at the local fitness/health centre or get a couple of rugby players in from the clubhouse which is not far away. This is all assuming other routes, like younger relatives is not an option.

Personally I would remove the table, head and (maybe) the cross slide, then lift it in two stages – first to get it off the floor (as high as practical) with an inclined plane arrangement, then a simple lift onto the bench.

I’m now the wrong side of 70 and with a quad bypass, so heavy lifts are mostly mechanical (Aldi electric hoist, teleporter, or pump (pallet) truck are all options for me, dependent on situation. My chain blocks don’t get much use these days. Back in the 1970s I used to remove and replace my cortina engine(s) on my own, using just a rope around the engine. so nowhere near as strong as back then.🙂 But I did load a lot of hay bales with a pitchfork back in my teens and twenties. So SOD is exaggerating a little bit.

As per Bazyle would work. If doing that I would have sufficient pallets/bearers available to insert under the mill so any failure could not mean more than a couple inches of drop to a secure base. My brother and I, together, would likely just lift the thing from about a foot off the ground onto the bench. Job done.

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Not enough room in this particular situation but something to bear in mind is ladders. A ladder has to be able to support one fat bloke safely so about 100kg on each step. So there are often situations where you can lean a ladder against a wall, put a step ladder nearby and run a beam between the two for lifting loads of around 100kg.
I had somethig in a wheelbarrow the other day that I didn't want to just tip out so was able to straddle it with a step ladder, secure with ratchet straps, then lower to another trolley. Only about 50kg but way more than I would attempt to lift.
I would not normally recommend using a ratchet strap as a hoist but provided you have some you are familiar with and know for certain will not let go suddenly you might consider them.

Edited By Bazyle on 13/09/2020 14:36:17

[Roger BestParticipant @rogerbest89007]

Thanks guys, I appreciate the support.

I like some of your ideas Bazyle. I will see what I have, using a fence post seems promising as I have some.

I am making a fuss because I have had a bad back for about 30 years and its currently only a mild hindrance, however I had Covid earlier this year and its taken a lot of strength out of me, so I am particularly wary of doing serious mischief.

I do have some fit neighbours but there is so little room that the chance of an accident is too high, I like controlled lifting so I shall probably try something involving the pallet and plank idea.

Its also worth noting that the bench is 1070mm high, so to get it into the drip tray I would need two motorbike lifts.

This is how we erected the South Bend, I have done it with muscle before but we found it was very tricky here and I opted for a safe method. For the mill job the floor is full so a wall or ceiling mounted crane is needed.

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Posted by Bazyle on 13/09/2020 14:32:02:

Not enough room in this particular situation but something to bear in mind is ladders.

…

…
I would not normally recommend using a ratchet strap as a hoist but provided you have some you are familiar with and know for certain will not let go suddenly you might consider them.

I like your improvisations!

I often use tatchet straps for other than securing loads. Pulling vehicles up ramps, to load on a trailer or controlling heavy items sliding down a plane to unload are two common problems relatively easy to overcome (but can be hard work). Two ratchet straps at least – one to hold the load while the other is adjusted for the next incremental lift or lowering.

[Roger BestParticipant @rogerbest89007]

The lathe was disassembled using a ratchet strap, ideal for raising it an inch. Unfortunately it wasn't so good at lowering several feet onto the horizontal sack barrow. Bit hairy that. I just wrapped the tail a couple of times round a pole for a brake and eased it down.

The orange flash in the picture is that strap – very robust and useful.

So I bought the pulley block hoist with the white rope. Utter Sh**. It is CE marked against a standard for electric hoists not manual ones, so you need to be able to pull 50kg on a thin rope. Hence the scaffold pole winch. Technically I think it is illegal and I would have sent it back were it not a collection of useful bits that can easily be improved upon to let me hang a bike from the ceiling.

[vic francisParticipant @vicfrancis]

Hi Roger, The trouble with home workshops is that it needs to match what you intend to build, with your loco interest, I see that sheet metal fabrication or metal heating is not catered for. My thought would be to dump the Drummond! And use the valuable space for the above!besides the Southbend is far superior machine tool and can do everything and more than the drummond… noting its rather unsupported lathe mandrel , which surely is for ornamental turning work? .are two lathes really necessary? sometimes a ruthless approach is best! Rather than collective…To change things later with access limitations would be very difficult. Just my thoughts and observations.

[Roger BestParticipant @rogerbest89007]

Good point Vic,

The Drummond is indeed redundant, however I love machine tools and I will restore it for its own sake with the help of the many pieces of information I have been sent by forum members. It is a century old and deserves a dignified retirement rather than the scrap heap, (possibly indoors if needs be).

It has a place in any modellers shop though, thanks to its versatility in no small part due to the T-slots in the cross slide. The South Bend is a lathe pure and simple, intended for a shop where other machines cover the other types of cut.

I will post a better photo after the milling machine is installed and my fume cabinet is built – that will show where the heating and spraying will occur. Sheet metalwork is an issue, I need a good place for a Formit and they need space around them, I also need a grinding & polishing wheel. So there will always be pressure for space.

[vic francisParticipant @vicfrancis]

Hi Roger, Well I thought I would mention that yes that is a slight failing of the south-bend lathe of no slotted crosslide, however i remember seeing a casting and drawings marketed some years ago to correct this. However The boxford slotted cross slide would be a close fit…. besides you have a mill coming which is superior to lathe milling ops…. even so, i would still dispose of it; simply as sheet metal work needs alot of room to process from 1/2 or 1/4 sheet stock size both from the front and to the rear, not to mention cranking the handle! I have found that they need to be permanently fixed down or move horribly under cranking the handle. Most likely your one would need to be 90 to the wall for access…they are no good on castors…!

Its true the drummond in capable hands can produce good work eg lbsc/ David Curwen but the area it takes ? Versus how much use argument. Locos have a fair amount of sheet metal work…

Another factor to consider is future needs… one chap( in a me article)had declining health and modified his workshop for wheelchair access… the first machine to be sold was by the door entrance…I see you have had covid and are feeling weak, I have seen this before with illness and recovery can be in years or other symptoms of tiredness now being reported after covid unfortunately so it maybe seating is factored in while working…Whatever you do good luck!

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