Tuscan motor .55kw induction motor

[sean logieParticipant @seanlogie69385]

[sean logieParticipant @seanlogie69385]

It’s been a while peeps . Ive aquired a Tusan motor from a filling station pump ,it’s totally inclosed as in there’s no cooling fins like on the motor I’m using just now . I will add photos to my albums and maybe you can let me know if it’s suitable to prolonged running . Anyone know what RTO 1HR might mean ,hope it doesn’t mean max running time is 1hr ?.

Sean

Edited By sean logie on 15/04/2017 10:09:07

[AJWParticipant @ajw]

I think an hour’s running sounds about right, a petrol pump is not designed to run continuously although if that was exceeded and caused the motor to overheat and fail it would not cause a major problem as the motor is designed as a flameproof unit.

Alan

[David JuppParticipant @davidjupp51506]

In the original application, one of the requirements for use in the hazardous area will be a maximum surface temperature limit. A run time limit could be imposed to help ensure the temperature limit isn't breached. Depending upon what you intend to use the motor for, you may be able to relax such limits – there may also be less restricted cooling than in the original application.

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

Unfortunately that motor is probably run time limited. Its pretty well sealed as its designed to live outside in a fairly leaky box and has no fan or external fins so it will tend to warm up as it runs. For filling station petrol / diesel pumps design maximum duty cycle would probably be in the 50% range on a run for a few minutes filling the vehicle, wait a bit until next customer pulls up sequence. Typically the wait would be rather longer than the work unless things are really busy. Motor probably has an over temperature protection device inside it. Either it triggers after an hour or it takes an hour to cool down and re-set.

I'd be unsurprised if it were the latter. Way, way back in teenage days I had a Saturday job on the pumps and recall one pump being unable to cope with the Saturday morning shopping time rush. After about two or three really busy hours it would go on strike for an hour or so then work as normal. Which sounds like motor temperature overload device. Normally 5 of us on duty for 8 pumps and we'd be on the run from 10 am to 1 pm so it had to work for its living. Don't recall it ever being fixed as the whole pace was refitted a couple or three months after it started messing about.

Clive

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

I have a .6 hp motor from a petrol pump, totally sealed with a built in flame proof switch. While I wouldn't run it under full load for hours, it is quite happy doing a full days work on my wood lathe.

Ian S C

[sean logieParticipant @seanlogie69385]

Great to here ,I doubt I’d be running my lathe all day. I think it’s worth a go at least. The reasons I want to down grade from the 1.5hp motor I’m running is wear and tare plus the bigger motor is very hard on the pocket. ..ie electric, I’ve noticed a big hike in our bill .

Sean

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

Wonder what the effective duty cycle is for motors on Home Shop machines? I imagine long runs would be at least partially offset by tea / coffee / buttie breaks. Plus high load use will most likely be limited so normally running at reduced power ought to help keep temperatures down. Inclined to think that 1 hour maximum at full load and nominal 50 % duty cycle overall would be enough.

Clive.

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Perhaps, when the likes of Chester quote "Please Note: These machines are not rated for continuous use in an industrial working environment." prospective customers should ask them to be more prescriptive.

Like, is it the motor (which will not withstand any continuous operation) or the mechanical components (which will wear out in short order)? Otherwise it is simply a 'get out' clause when one component of the lathe fails (sooner or later).

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by not done it yet on 15/04/2017 15:25:21:

Perhaps, when the likes of Chester quote "Please Note: These machines are not rated for continuous use in an industrial working environment." prospective customers should ask them to be more prescriptive.

Like, is it the motor (which will not withstand any continuous operation) or the mechanical components (which will wear out in short order)? Otherwise it is simply a 'get out' clause when one component of the lathe fails (sooner or later).

It can be many things – usually their ability to put up with abuse and misuse. It's assumed that domestic tools and equipment will usually not have multiple users (so not get lots of use by inexperienced users) and not be expected to work industrial duty cycles.

For example domestic stepladders are perfectly OK around the home, but throw them in the back of a van every day and they will soon develop faults.

Neil

[Phil WhitleyParticipant @philwhitley94135]

The motor rating is "1Hr" that is the length of time it will safely run without overheating, If you are using it on a machine where you stop the motor to stop the lathe, it will be ok,ish but if it is a machine on which the motor runs all the time, I would look for something else, although as been said above, it is gas tight and explosion proof, so it won't stink the shop out if it burns out!

[Phil WhitleyParticipant @philwhitley94135]

Ah, now I see the problem!! that is not RTO, it's RTG, which is RaTinG. This motor is 1 hour rated! That is its max continous run time.

[Brian OldfordParticipant @brianoldford70365]

No connection, but you could always check these out https://inverterdrive.com/group/Single-Phase-Motors/

[David JuppParticipant @davidjupp51506]

Posted by Phil Whitley on 15/04/2017 20:50:42:

…as been said above, it is gas tight and explosion proof, so it won't stink the shop out if it burns out!

Not quite. There arefully controlled gaps which won't allow a flame to pass, not actually gas tight. For example there has to be some clearance where the shaft exits the casing.

[sean logieParticipant @seanlogie69385]

Well that’s the Tuscan up and running, only time will tell how it will handle it’s new home ,which by the way is in the same position the original motor was . I had to bore out the old stepped pulley which worked out perfect . I’m toying with the idea of drilling holes in the end plate of the motor to let some air in and out . This motor is so quite you almost have to look at it to see if it’s still running when the lathe is out of gear . No doubt there will be some gasps of horror about me drilling holes ,at the end of the day the motor didn’t cost me a dime so I’ve nowt to lose 😀.I’ve tried some really heavy cuts and the motor is more than capable of handling it .

Sean

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

I suspect that in the petrol pump environment, not only will it be unventilated, but also the ambient temperature rise in hot summer weather could be large too. So unless the motor casing starts getting very hot to touch I wouldn't worry too much.

[larry PhelanParticipant @larryphelan54019]

I came across a 1/2 hp Tuscan motor about 50 years ago,fitted it to a homemade benchsaw,and am still using it.

I have no idea what it was used for to begin with,but it was not new when I got it.I have done serious work with it over the years and it has never failed. It is TEFC and fitted with ball races,a little noisy perhaps,but on a benchsaw,you dont notice that. T he point is,it does the job,so if your motor is anything like mine,you have nothing to worry about. It might not be fancy,but it works ! Dont know if they are still being made.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Just a thought, repeated stop starts can heat a motor more than continuous running.

Neil

[larry PhelanParticipant @larryphelan54019]

Hi Neil,

You are right there,single phase motors do not like too many start/stops.Perhaps I have been lucky in that I have never had any problem with mine but I know it,s something to be aware of.Could be an issue with a lathe,whereas a saw tends to be kept running most of the time,the lathe needs to be stopped every so often. I suppose that,s the advantage of three phase. As they say,horses for courses.

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 17/04/2017 11:28:37:

Just a thought, repeated stop starts can heat a motor more than continuous running.

Neil

Probably not an issue with that motor as its intended for fuel pump use where it will have to cope with many starts per hour with only short run and cool down periods. As ever its down to design optimisation for particular duties.

Design load is a centrifugal pump which has a light load at starting load and low to mid rpm so you don't need so much ooph on start-up. Hence start winding can be smaller and currents lower. So heavier wire can be used than with a conventional motor which needs to be able to start under load. Lower current plus heavier wire means much less heat generated per start so can manage more per hour without problems.

As always its a case of selecting the most appropriate design compromises for the job. With a standard motor limiting to a few starts per hour is worth the gain from lighter wire in the start winding which saves space and leads to a more efficient motor.

That one hour run time specification is more a reminder that the heating and cooling thermal time constants of the motor have been considered when selecting it for the job rather than a hard limit. If you don't run at full power for long periods its quite likely you will never get it warm enough to need a cool down rest. But if you do overheat it remember that it will take along time to cool right down again. It takes a fair while for all the heat to wander out from deep inside the windings.

Check that it doesn't run hot on low or zero load. Its not uncommon to find that motors optimised for a very well defined type of load will run very hot off load drawing disproportionately large currents.

Clive.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Any bookies prepared to take bets on how long Sean's Tuscan motor lasts?

I reckon Sean is on to a good thing. Screw-cutting with my lathe earlier, the motor was off as much as it was on. There were many head-scratching pauses and I stopped for a coffee after a couple of hours. I'd say my duty cycle this afternoon was less than 20%. If Sean is like me, he's laughing.

Am I typical though? I'm the sort who rarely works hard to meet a target. Even excluding the professionals, I get the impression that many on the forum are more industrious than me. This must make a big difference to the motor rating one can get away with. What sort of duty do you keen chaps inflict on your equipment?

Dave

[Swarf, Mostly!Participant @swarfmostly]

Hi there, Dave,

I fitted my ML7 with a counter-shaft clutch, that helps a lot.

And, Clive, I have to disagree with you about the petrol pump having a centrifugal pump. It is a dispensing device that has to meet volumetric limits set by Trading Standards or Weights & Measures or maybe even HMRC so I would expect the pump to be of the positive displacement type.

The output signal from a flow-rate meter would have to be integrated to yield volume and integrators are notorious for drift.

Best regards,

Swarf, Mostly!

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

How old might this thing be? I remember the two 'one gallon' jug type of pump where one jug was filled while the other emptied by gravity. Slow (not so slow back then) but not needing any flow measurement, only one gallon volumetric at a time. I don't know if there was an accumulator, even, for gallons dispensed. Never filled the tank to full unless the residual was popped into a petrol can (or estimated from the jug graduations).

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

Swarf, Mostly

Ooops. Should have checked a bit rather than relying on memory. T'net is interesting but not totally helpful. Looks like modern "dispensers", apparently thats the right name for what we see on forecourts, use most varieties of pump. Petrol has a low viscosity and lubricity so producing a long lasting positive displacement pump sounds fairly challenging. Surprised to see that gear pumps can be made to work well as sliding surface areas are, inevitably, large and can't be sealed off from the liquid being pumped. So relatively low lubricity probably doesn't help.

Interesting to be reminded of how difficult it is to accurately measure volume delivery. Especially with a liquid like petrol which has a relatively large coefficient of thermal expansion.

Clive

[sean logieParticipant @seanlogie69385]

Well I'm shocked …. Went out to try out something on the Fortis today and after about ten min the tuscan motor that i was praising started losing power ,motor was stone cold so not overheating just lost power .Left it for an hour or so came back and the same happened again so I've now refitted the 2hp motor(I thought was 1.5hp but rechecked and it's 1.5kw) …..So now I'm back on the look out for a smaller motor again .Least I'm not out of pocket….can't have that now

Sean

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