The diesel controversy

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

We have a tourist tramway in Christchurch, and I think there is one in Auckland, but Dunedin and Wellington both have Trolley Busses. Up to the time of the earth quake in 2011 the were hybrid electric busses in Christchurch, battery electric with a Capstone Gas Turbine for charging. I don't know what happened to those busses after they were taken off their route around the city centre.

Ian S C

[ZebethyalParticipant @zebethyal]

Posted by Mike Poole on 07/05/2017 20:52:37:

Surely the best thing to do with ethanol is drink it and run engines on methanol.

Mike

Methanol is not nice either – similar properties to ethanol, but one less carbon atom per molecule.

Cars run on methanol need to have anodised fittings, or the methanol will 'eat' the aluminium.

You don't need to worry about dirt in your fuel system as the methanol will 'eat' it all, ideally flush your fuel system after running to prevent it from eating the hoses.

Don't get it on your skin as it will be absorbed, attacks the nervous system and can make you blind and mad.

Absorbs water as previously mentioned.

Sickly sweet smell when it burns, which can become cloying quite quickly.

Burns clear so you can walk into a methanol fire and not know it (this is why the fire marshals at the drag strip always put on their balaclavas and hold their fire extinguishers when the methanol cars come round).

You need about twice the quantity of methanol to normal gasoline for the same 'bang' from the engine, however the power drop off when running rich is far less severe than with gasoline, (so everyone runs rich – running lean with a turbo = torched heads) but there is a risk of hydrolocking your engine due to too much methanol being used.

Engines run cold on methanol, so overheating is raealy a problem, most methanol engines employ a lean out valve in order to warm them up.

The methanol will also get past the oil rings and turn your sump oil to the consistency and colour of 'custard'

[Barnaby WildeParticipant @barnabywilde70941]

There is an option, A different path that will cut polluting emissions by however many percentage points you want it to.

Nobody can see it 'cos we're all asleep.

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

Posted by Zebethyal on 08/05/2017 15:47:37:

Posted by Mike Poole on 07/05/2017 20:52:37:

Surely the best thing to do with ethanol is drink it and run engines on methanol.

Mike

Methanol is not nice either – similar properties to ethanol, but one less carbon atom per molecule.

Cars run on methanol need to have anodised fittings, or the methanol will 'eat' the aluminium.

You don't need to worry about dirt in your fuel system as the methanol will 'eat' it all, ideally flush your fuel system after running to prevent it from eating the hoses.

Don't get it on your skin as it will be absorbed, attacks the nervous system and can make you blind and mad.

Absorbs water as previously mentioned.

Sickly sweet smell when it burns, which can become cloying quite quickly.

Burns clear so you can walk into a methanol fire and not know it (this is why the fire marshals at the drag strip always put on their balaclavas and hold their fire extinguishers when the methanol cars come round).

You need about twice the quantity of methanol to normal gasoline for the same 'bang' from the engine, however the power drop off when running rich is far less severe than with gasoline, (so everyone runs rich – running lean with a turbo = torched heads) but there is a risk of hydrolocking your engine due to too much methanol being used.

Engines run cold on methanol, so overheating is raealy a problem, most methanol engines employ a lean out valve in order to warm them up.

The methanol will also get past the oil rings and turn your sump oil to the consistency and colour of 'custard'

Being mad has to be the main qualification to ride speedway so perhaps methanol is the ideal fuel. As most engines running on methanol are race engines the attrition on parts can be tolerated. In my experience a face full of nitro vapour is none to pleasant, serves me right for getting to close to an engine being tested, found out why all the crew were wearing masks but there's always one dickhead and it was my turn.

Mike

[stan pearson 1Participant @stanpearson1]

The catalytic converter was fitted to petrol engine cars to stop people killing them selves with tube from exhaust pipes which was carbon monoxide the same as faulty gas fires. I retired 9 years ago after 50 years as a Diesel fitter and have never heard of any body dying from the fumes and I worked with some of the worst engines such as Gardener 5LW, I run a Vauxhall Astravan on a 2012 plate and because of the problems with the DPF blocking and having to drive 20 miles every 5 days at 4000 rpm to clean it out I removed it and had the software re-mapped to stop the engine going into limp mode. I have also blanked off the EGR with a plate a genuine Vauxhall part and removed the Catalytic Converter, it went for its MOT today and the emission test passed no problems and it runs better than ever.

Stan

[Bob Brown 1Participant @bobbrown1]

Posted by stan pearson 1 on 09/05/2017 22:24:45:

The catalytic converter was fitted to petrol engine cars to stop people killing them selves with tube from exhaust pipes which was carbon monoxide the same as faulty gas fires. I retired 9 years ago after 50 years as a Diesel fitter and have never heard of any body dying from the fumes and I worked with some of the worst engines such as Gardener 5LW, I run a Vauxhall Astravan on a 2012 plate and because of the problems with the DPF blocking and having to drive 20 miles every 5 days at 4000 rpm to clean it out I removed it and had the software re-mapped to stop the engine going into limp mode. I have also blanked off the EGR with a plate a genuine Vauxhall part and removed the Catalytic Converter, it went for its MOT today and the emission test passed no problems and it runs better than ever.

Stan

Your Astra Van should have failed the MOT if you've removed the DPF and/or the cat as it now a requirement in the MOT that if they are fitted from new they must still be there for the MOT.

It is also worth noting:

It is an offence under the Road vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations (Regulation 61a(3))1 to use a vehicle which has been modified in such a way that it no longer complies with the air pollutant emissions standards it was designed to meet. Removal of a DPF will almost invariably contravene these requirements, making the vehicle illegal for road use.

The potential penalties for failing to comply with Regulation 61a are fines of up to £1,000 for a car or £2,500 for a light goods vehicle.

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

Edinburgh had trams covering the entire city, they ripped them all up in the 1950s

"Having trains running through our city streets is pure madness"

Policy

 

Edinburgh has been bankrupting the city building new tramways over the last 15 years

"Trams are much greener than other forms of public transport"

Policy

 

There's only one REAL policy

Make it up as you go along, so long as it costs lots of money

This diesel farce is just more of the same

Edited By Ady1 on 10/05/2017 01:09:41

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

The catalytic converter was fitted to petrol engine cars to stop people killing them selves with tube from exhaust pipes which was carbon monoxide the same as faulty gas fires.

Nooo! The cat was fitted to convert the nasties ( CO and NOx) to CO2 and N2.

Unfortunately, it is likely that many cats are not working for many car journeys – the rat run to school, the short journey across town to work, or the initial part of a journey to get out of town. Why? Because the cat does not work from cold – it needs to be up to temperature before performing, so all these short trips with an engine from cold, are extremely polluting, compared with when the cat is up to temperature and working properly.

[Antony PowellParticipant @antonypowell28169]

Hi Stan

The government have introduced new rules to stop exactly what you have done with very hefty fines to be imposed.

DPF removal is illegal and voids insurance as it is an undeclared vehicle modification which changes the homologation of a vehicle

Here's some info from a recent trade magazine

Back in February 2014, VOSA introduced a visual check of the presence of a Diesel Particulate Filter

(DPF) as part of the MOT, with an MOT failure resulting if a missing DPF was found on a vehicle,

which was built with one fitted as original equipment.

This has been difficult to police, with many services springing up around the UK to remove the

internal elements of the filter while leaving the casing to pass the inspection. A government

investigation followed urgent calls for reform as the current MOT fails to identify many cases of

DPF removal because it only includes a ‘visual inspection’ of the hardware, which can be welded

back together.

Changes have this month been made to the Roadworthiness Directive legislation which will come

into force in May 2018. This will reduce the smoke limit threshold, which is currently 1.5% to 0.7%,

providing additional evidence from the emissions that something may not be quite as it seems.

The Department for Transport (DfT ) says: "Removal of a DPF will almost invariably result in a

contravention of the Regulations, making the vehicle illegal to use on the road. The legislation

makes the owner or user of the vehicle primarily responsible for its condition. Whether the person

who had removed the DPF, or had offered to remove it, had also committed an offence would be

a matter for the courts to decide.”

Penalties currently stand at £1,000 for a car and £2,500 for a van.

As you know insurance companies will use any excuse not to pay out !!

Tony

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

Posted by not done it yet on 10/05/2017 07:57:11:

The catalytic converter was fitted to petrol engine cars to stop people killing them selves with tube from exhaust pipes which was carbon monoxide the same as faulty gas fires.

 

 

Nooo! The cat was fitted to convert the nasties ( CO and NOx) to CO2 and N2.

 

Unfortunately, it is likely that many cats are not working for many car journeys – the rat run to school, the short journey across town to work, or the initial part of a journey to get out of town. Why? Because the cat does not work from cold – it needs to be up to temperature before performing, so all these short trips with an engine from cold, are extremely polluting, compared with when the cat is up to temperature and working properly.

 

It's probable that your both right, the cat was introduced and invented to filter the gases, to help the air quality and thus improve peoples lives.

However, it did put a sizeable dent into the number of people killing themselves using this method, it was fast catching on before they did this.

It's much harder to forcibly remove the catalytic converter then it was to just do the above. People may not be aware of it but part of the remit of law makers is to prevent harm to people where it is easily inflicted, whether the recipient intended to be harmed or not.

Suicide is now the most likely thing to cut men's life short, especially for under 40's and because of this, it is soon rising on the agenda, much in the same way the number of road fatalities caused a panic in the 80's and 90's.

Michael W

<Edit> I know this stuff is all over the internet, but having had to deal with the aftermath of suicide from different perspectives I'm acutely aware that it is not a good idea to post methodologies, no matter how simple or obvious they are – it 'normalises' suicide.. Best advice for anyone with suicidal thoughts is to contact CALM or the Samaritans. – Neil

Edited By Neil Wyatt on 10/05/2017 12:27:52

[Ex contributorParticipant @mgnbuk]

the emission test passed no problems

The MoT test for diesels is a visible smoke test, not "emissions" such as Nitrogen Dioxide. I am pretty sure I have seen something about proper emissions tests being developed for MoTs, as the current test is acknowledged as being inadequate. As well as being illegal, tampering with emissions control equipment is downright antisocial IMO.

The "problem" of older diesels will work it's way out in reasonably short order due to attrition. Euro 4 limits came in in Jan 2005 & Euro 5 in Sept 2009 – I pass a vehicle breakers on my way home & most cars there are post 2000 (many post 2004), so it won't be long before many of the Euro 4 cars are getting recycled naturally. The costs of basic repairs are such that even a relatively minor failure in a 10+ year old car makes it unviable to repair – even if you can get the parts. I have shifted 2 out of my last 3 cars because of actual or potential repair costs, the last being a 5 1/2 year old Toyota Avensis with 85000 showing that was eating money. It had 1 front wheel bearing under the 5 year warranty (just within & done with bad grace), another front bearing failed 3 months later & Toyota wanted £500 to replace it (Independant did it for £275). A rear bearing was noisy 2 months later + the CVT gearbox ws getting noisy & Toyota didn't supply parts, only a brand new gearbox for £4500 ! I got £4500 in P/X for another car instead – pointless pumping money into an older car.

The bigger problem with older diesels would appear to be busses, taxis & large commercial vehicles, which have a much longer operating life than cars and light commercials. Legislation to mandate retrofitting of emission control equipment or re-engining with compliant equipment of these vehicles would appear to me to be a more sensible option if faster air quality improvement results are required than car scrappage schemes would provide.

Nigel B

[Antony PowellParticipant @antonypowell28169]

As far as suicide goes it was leaded petrol that produced the main carbon monoxide when burnt

therefore unleaded petrol means less carbon monoxide = less suicides from it

you can try for hours with unleaded fuel without success

coupled with more efficient engines means less pollution

hence why these days you very rarely here of it happening…..

Tony

[stan pearson 1Participant @stanpearson1]

Hi Nigel B

You are correct in what you are saying a Diesel vehicle cannot fail its MOT, when doing a test if you cannot see the fault you cant fail it and it is not illegal to remove the filters and the test only detects black smoke. There are lots of firms advertising that they will remove the filters and remap the software and guarantee a mot pass, yes the government might bring in a new test for emissions but not yet

Stan

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by stan pearson 1 on 10/05/2017 22:10:23:.

… it is not illegal to remove the filters …

61a(3) of the Road vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations refers. As Tony said the fine for modifying a van is £2500.

I've always understood that the need to clean up exhaust emissions started in California where high car ownership and their Mediterranean style weather caused severe smogs and obvious health problems. The main problem wasn't Carbon Monoxide, it was Nitrogen Oxides and unburnt hydrocarbons.

I remember being in an old fashioned London smog when I was about 10. It was a thick greasy yellow-green fog, visibility about 4 feet. It had a chemical taste and made my eyes water. Very nasty.

Dave

[Roderick JenkinsParticipant @roderickjenkins93242]

Posted by Antony Powell on 10/05/2017 13:40:24:

As far as suicide goes it was leaded petrol that produced the main carbon monoxide when burnt

therefore unleaded petrol means less carbon monoxide = less suicides from it

you can try for hours with unleaded fuel without success

coupled with more efficient engines means less pollution

hence why these days you very rarely here of it happening…..

Tony

Hmm…Catalytic convertors reduce the amount of carbon monoxide produced by petrol engine exhausts. Lead in petrol poisons the cat and stops it working, so you have to use unleaded petrol. Lead from exhausts also poisons the environment. We therefore have the happy coincidence that using an engine with a cat stops you suffering neurological damage from lead and helps to prevent you dying from CO poisoning when playing with your car engine in the garage (but not my Wyvern engine which set off the CO monitor 3 rooms away).

Rod

[ZebethyalParticipant @zebethyal]

Posted by Antony Powell on 10/05/2017 13:40:24:

As far as suicide goes it was leaded petrol that produced the main carbon monoxide when burnt

therefore unleaded petrol means less carbon monoxide = less suicides from it

you can try for hours with unleaded fuel without success

coupled with more efficient engines means less pollution

hence why these days you very rarely here of it happening…..

Tony

From a suicide/accidental death point of view, the unleaded fuel producing less CO merely delays the process.

In any closed space there is only so much oxygen and whilst normal combustion will produce C02 and H20, after a while the oxygen will become depleted and both you and the engine will start to produce more CO as there is less oxygen and more carbon available.

You can die from carbon monoxide poisening with nothing producing the CO other than yourself, given a suitable sized sealed enclosure and enough time, after a while you will also become too lethargic to do anything about escaping once the CO poisening sets in.

If however the garage has suitable ventilation, then CO poisening is unlikely.

[Roderick JenkinsParticipant @roderickjenkins93242]

Posted by Zebethyal on 11/05/2017 07:46

You can die from carbon monoxide poisening with nothing producing the CO other than yourself, given a suitable sized sealed enclosure and enough time, after a while you will also become too lethargic to do anything about escaping once the CO poisening sets in.

Human respiration doesn't normally produce carbon monoxide. It does produce carbon dioxide as a waste product – the more active you are the more carbon dioxide is produced and the body uses carbon dioxide to regulate breathing and heart rate. If the carbon dioxide level in the air being breathed in is raised then this extra carbon dioxide is transferred to the blood and sends false signals to the body which increases breathing and heart rate to a level that will eventually kill you. In an airtight box the amount of exhaled carbon dioxide increases the proportion of carbon dioxide in the air to a level that causes death. This happens long before you have used up all the oxygen and is the reason why it was so important to get the carbon dioxide scrubbers working on Apollo 13.

That's my understanding of the problem. Is there a doctor in the house?

Rod

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

Agreed, Roderick.

Carbon dioxide is the primary regulator of breathing. If an unconcious patient is given oxygen there is a real danger that they can stop breathing. The process with Carbon monoxide is it binds too tightly to Haemoglobin and doesn't get released in the lungs. This effectively reduces the capacity of the blood to carry oxygen to the tissues and results in death. It's quite hard to treat. Haemoglobin releases oxygen when in mose acidic areas of the body (more dissolved CO2) so targets oxygen depeted tissues and increses the efficiency of the transport process.

regards Martin

[Antony PowellParticipant @antonypowell28169]

Hi Stan

It is not illegal to remove the dpf filter….UNTIL YOU DRIVE IT ON THE ROAD…..this is the illegal part

Homologation is the testing carried out on every mass produced vehicle on the road in europe, if you change the vehicle in any way this voids the homologation testing and makes the vehicle illegal for use on public road.

You are also in breech of the construction and use act by modifying your van and using it on the road.

yes there are companies out there who tell you it will pass an MOT but they also should be telling you that it is illegal to use on public roads without the filter.

Many of these companies have disclaimers in their small print stating that you have been informed of this. they are not breaking the law by doing the mod YOU are breaking the law by using it on the road.

Vauxhall sell an "approved" blank for the egr valve they do not sell empty dpf filter housings !!

If your insurance finds out that you have modified your vehicle and not declared it this will void your insurance.

Tony

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

Posted by Antony Powell on 11/05/2017 09:20:07:

Hi Stan

It is not illegal to remove the dpf filter….UNTIL YOU DRIVE IT ON THE ROAD…..this is the illegal part

Tony

This provision was clearly placed so that fitters and mechanics could repair and modify the car while it's off the road and presumably in an unusable state, that they can do this without breaking the law.

However, like you said, this does not mean it can be used without it. Usage being the critical part of the legal side.

Michael W

[stan pearson 1Participant @stanpearson1]

If removing the lead from petrol stopped the emission of carbon monoxide why do people still get poisoned from faulty gas fires and boilers, I didn't know they put lead in the gas supply. So when you say it is illegal to alter a vehicle and run it on the road why is it ok to change the exhaust and fit big bore no baffles and wider wheels and lower the ride height or is it just more knock the Diesel engine as it is the finest engine ever built, also when first built it was designed to run on peanut oil.

Stan,

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

Posted by stan pearson 1 on 11/05/2017 22:20:52:

If removing the lead from petrol stopped the emission of carbon monoxide why do people still get poisoned from faulty gas fires and boilers, I didn't know they put lead in the gas supply. So when you say it is illegal to alter a vehicle and run it on the road why is it ok to change the exhaust and fit big bore no baffles and wider wheels and lower the ride height or is it just more knock the Diesel engine as it is the finest engine ever built, also when first built it was designed to run on peanut oil.

Stan,

I think it's just that engines are far more efficient than they used to be and therefore less waste product involved to be put into the atmosphere. No more black soot and white smoke coming out the back of the average family car.

With Gas, this is slightly different, CO is given off as a waste product from gas that has not properly burned off. The actual LPG gas itself is also heavier than air, which means it sinks to the floor but it also displaces the air if in a confined area. 

A lot of new gas fires come fitted with a safety mechanism which switches off supply to the burner if dangerous levels of CO are detected. 

I wont go into too much detail, as neil says never a good idea to talk about dangerous methods even if it is on the net. 

Michael W

Edited By Michael-w on 11/05/2017 22:31:33

[stan pearson 1Participant @stanpearson1]

A lot of gas fires come with a catalytic converter fitted so you don't need a flue, the point is that people are knocking the diesel for no reason a well maintained diesel is no more harmful than any other fossil burning fuel engine. The government go with the what ever they think right or wrong some body said about taxis nearly all near us have had the DPF removed and so are some of the buses the government is now saying that log burners are as bad as the diesel but no body minds buying from shops that are delivered to by the diesel powered HGV or flying abroad on planes that burn paraffin also ships bringing things from China and other places chucking out black smoke they would not pass an Mot. I know some of the newer ones have carbon collecting systems but not many and they can be removed and cleaned. As I have said I spent 50 years with diesel engines I also am a member of The Road Transport Engineers I also am a qualified mot tester and know all about the construction and use. And what about diesel trains have you never seen them black smoking and diesel rail cars left idling for hours at a time so lets leave road transport alone until a proper set of rules come out. The government are too quick to jump to the wrong conclusions remember eggs, and finally most of the people that have died from diesel fumes had underlying lung problems, yes I lived through the 40s and 50s and know all about smog and im still here with clear lungs.

Stan

[Antony PowellParticipant @antonypowell28169]

If removing the lead from petrol stopped the emission of carbon monoxide why do people still get poisoned from faulty gas fires and boilers, I didn't know they put lead in the gas supply."

 

As far as I am aware they don't put lead in gas, The Carbon monoxide is created due to an inefficient burn.

 

"" So when you say it is illegal to alter a vehicle and run it on the road why is it ok to change the exhaust and fit big bore no baffles and wider wheels and lower the ride height"

 

All those modifications are also illegal if not approved

And the insurance informed

 

Whether you like it or not Stan your van is illegal to use on the road without the DPF being intact and it's your responsibility.

Edited By Antony Powell on 12/05/2017 14:48:02

[Barnaby WildeParticipant @barnabywilde70941]

Posted by Antony Powell on 12/05/2017 14:43:53:

All those modifications are also illegal if not approved

And the insurance informed

Edited By Antony Powell on 12/05/2017 14:48:02

So, it's illegal to fit a non approved exhaust then?

Has anyone told Kwik Fit ?

[Author]

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